Mod to Member ratio... (Current Discussion: Forum Specific Images)

[Houndoom_Lover]

I liked the idea of having it at the very bottom. :0

[RedStarWarrior]

I liked the idea of having it at the very bottom. :0

I'd like to have it be viewable by members only.

[Drago]

I know I'm late to the party (I always seem to take a couple days off right when an interesting topic emerges...), but I as a mod certainly appreciate having RSW and Heald on-board to help me out here... I don't claim to have all the answers, so sometimes being able to discuss what to do about a situation is necessary. Similarly, should I make a mistake, I would expect either of them to be able to say 'I don't agree with that one' and rectify it if necessary. Having more than one opinion stops my dictatorship from flourishing, you see.

So we're onto a spam forum now? I'm not opposed to it, but I'm mostly curious to see what then isn't considered misc. Material. The ctrl+V thread, for example?

[Magmar]

*Rolls in way too late* Hi

Anyways, the mods really don't do much besides clean up spam because seriously, there's what, 40 active non-mods? Roughly? And how many mods, supermods and admins? It's not like work isn't getting done. When there is a problem, it gets taken care of pretty quickly. If mods really think they have some big job or are making some tragic sacrifice of their time and energy to take care of TPM of all things, they're quite mistaken. Supermods and admins, on the other hand, I can see.

But if you walk around stroking yourself over being a mod, just remember, you're a mod on a fucking Pokemon forum, and nobody is going to care except people that post here. In fact, 99% of anyone over the age of 8 will probably laugh at you. They also won't understand how awesome this place actually is and just how un-Pokemon-ish it really is these days, lol. I mean, I love it, but will I tell my friends that when I'm home sick with bronchitis I post on a Pokemon forum? Probably not, lol.

Edit: I remember when I was a mod and TPM was brand spanking new, and one time I closed a completely spam topic in the Misc forum when I was a General Discussion mod, because new members were all replying to it like OMFG THIS IS SPAM REMOVE IT PLEASE MODS and so I just locked it, and I got seriously reamed out over it. Seriously, people used to be REALLY uptight in these parts. It really makes you wonder why we spent our precious adolescence posting here and losing sleep over... TPM drama...

[shazza]

Combining Misc with Mt. Moon? Fuck that for a joke. Some people aren't going to like Mt. Moon; those that chill primarily in Misc don't need to suffer the harsh cruelties of flamewars and whatnot. And if they are combined, then it won't be Mt. Moon at all, it's just going to be "Misc but let's be a tad little less strict". It's stupid, mateeeeeee.

[Jeff]

I don't see what the harm in creating Mt. Moon would be. If it gets old and inactive, we'll just deal with it then.

[shazza]

[Gavin Luper]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I don't think the SPAM forum is a good idea.

It just boils down to, well ... I honestly don't see the point of it. I think that's it. More pragmatically, it seems like more of our energy would be spent on anarchic shit-talk and general faggotry and less on, you know, making interesting/fun posts in Misc, or trying to liven up all the other subforums of our site and encourage members to be more active.

I know the argument for it is kind of that it will create more free-flowing discussions and activity, but at the end of the day, aren't we basically left with the same level of activity in all the "real" forums (perhaps less), with the new addition of, essentially, a forum full of shit?

Plus, isn't random shit-talk kind of what the chat room's for?

So, I guess my position's clear: I'm very much against the creation of a SPAM forum.

[shazza]

It just boils down to, well ... I honestly don't see the point of it. I think that's it. More pragmatically, it seems like more of our energy would be spent on anarchic shit-talk and general faggotry and less on, you know, making interesting/fun posts in Misc, or trying to liven up all the other subforums of our site and encourage members to be more active.

I know the argument for it is kind of that it will create more free-flowing discussions and activity, but at the end of the day, aren't we basically left with the same level of activity in all the "real" forums (perhaps less), with the new addition of, essentially, a forum full of shit?

I would hope the energy would be spread out. In fact, I feel a bit excited that if there was a SPAM forum, that more interest in Misc would be put into creating discussions about current affairs, who we are and whatnot. I think fun could still entail; the same kind of fun that Misc has more or less endured over the past few months. I also believe that with such a forum, retarded bickering - which seems to have increased in recent weeks - would be less. It also gives the moderator the authority to be more stricter when seeing shit like that occur in Misc, knowing well and good that it's best suited for Mt. Moon, so they can in effect enforce an actual warning.

In a way, the best of both worlds get it: it gives more allowance for rules, but it also gives people a chance to break these rules outside of TPM. I'm not saying that the other forums will become more strict overall, but just when you see arguing and going off topic too much, a moderator now has it in their jurisdiction to warn them that they well and truly know it belongs in Mt. Moon.

If you can't beat them, join them. It's like giving heroin junkies a place to shoot up!

Plus, isn't random shit-talk kind of what the chat room's for?

I think that's more real-time based, and it's sort've a different thing. In the forum, people can respond to usually potentially chat based question, but in their own time. I also feel the forum would try its best for potential humor.

So, I guess my position's clear: I'm very much against the creation of a SPAM forum.

Understandable. I argued a few months back that TPM should become more democratic, although I was probably a bit radical to suggest we rotate our mod and admin team on fixed terms. I think once the discussions are in place, and there seems to be people with two sides, then polls should be conducted:
1) Should we condense the forums to a proposed model? (Such as Heald's)
2) Should we create a SPAM forum, i.e. 'Mt. Moon'?

Or something like that.

P.S: I think the topics 'Mod to Member ratio...' and 'Condensing forums' are really intertwined!

[Gavin Luper]

Mm, I do see that the chat room =/= a spam forum. Fair call.

I think my basic sentiment is that Misc ought to be the place for miscellaneous discussions, both serious and frivolous. Why can't misc itself be a general talk-shit forum as it stands, except maintaining the rules that govern general decorum? I'm not talking necessarily about the rules that relate to relevancy and things like that; I think perhaps the rules could be a bit looser in that regard to make the forum a little more relaxed and fun. I think the fun and relaxed vibe could certainly be fostered within the system we have now. But things like flaming, swearing, general codes of decency (no porn/gore, for example), and treating other people with general respect ... I seriously can't see why I would want to get on board with basically sanctioning that behaviour and dedicating an entire subforum to it.

I definitely see your argument for Mt. Moon in terms of it being the place people are sent to to sort out their arguments, but frankly I see that as a misuse of forum space. If people are going to scream and abuse each other, they can get the hell off the forum and resolve (or exacerbate) their issues in private - via PM, AIM, MSN, whatever - but why on earth should it be done in public?

I guess what I'm saying is that I see your argument for Mt. Moon, and I think there's something valid to it in as much as I think that kind of fun/frivolous/relaxed vibe ought to exist here on TPM, but I definitely don't agree with the creation of such a forum that allows the kind of behaviour described above. I think it would be more beneficial to adapt Misc to become a place where serious and fun discussions coexist and rules of good conduct and general respect still apply.

We could even rename it Mt. Moon; I quite like that name!

[RedStarWarrior]

why on earth should it be done in public?

Entertainment value.

[Gavin Luper]

Entertainment value.

I find myself unable to fault your logic.



FFUUUUUUUUUU

[Magmar]

See, I think a spam forum is a good idea, but maybe we should have a certain seniority limitation to who can post in it, so people can prove they're not going to abuse it.

I mean, when someone who's been here a while posted a one-word reply, a smiley, or just a period, since we know him or her really well, it's not a big deal. In fact we laugh and keep scrolling, because we know how that person communicates, and we get the joke. When a new person does that, we start to doubt whether they are taking the board seriously. Not that many of us take it VERY seriously. I mean, I don't take it very seriously, but I respect it enough to usually post something of somewhat substance. We just have to know our place--in a forum that's almost died many times, and we're right now in a good, busy run that hopefully lasts a long time. And since we all hate to admit but like each other, we stick around and try to keep up the quality.

Can spam be quality? Absolutely. The Ctrl + V thread is quality... is there a purpose? Yes. Is there any substance there? Yes. Is it probably forged by at least 2/3 of the posts? Absolutely. (Don't even deny it, people from the fanfiction forum, that you post clips of your stories there on purpose!) In a way, we're just showing snippets of our lives, and we've all accepted it and just go along and continue to get the satisfaction of the thread.

[RedStarWarrior]

See, I think a spam forum is a good idea, but maybe we should have a certain seniority limitation to who can post in it, so people can prove they're not going to abuse it.

I mean, when someone who's been here a while posted a one-word reply, a smiley, or just a period, since we know him or her really well, it's not a big deal. In fact we laugh and keep scrolling, because we know how that person communicates, and we get the joke. When a new person does that, we start to doubt whether they are taking the board seriously. Not that many of us take it VERY seriously. I mean, I don't take it very seriously, but I respect it enough to usually post something of somewhat substance. We just have to know our place--in a forum that's almost died many times, and we're right now in a good, busy run that hopefully lasts a long time. And since we all hate to admit but like each other, we stick around and try to keep up the quality.

Can spam be quality? Absolutely. The Ctrl + V thread is quality... is there a purpose? Yes. Is there any substance there? Yes. Is it probably forged by at least 2/3 of the posts? Absolutely. (Don't even deny it, people from the fanfiction forum, that you post clips of your stories there on purpose!) In a way, we're just showing snippets of our lives, and we've all accepted it and just go along and continue to get the satisfaction of the thread.

I think a limit on who can post is a good idea. Another forum I go to has karma levels in which you gain higher level the more you are active and as you reach certain levels, more forums become available for you to post in. Now, I do not want to implement the system here, but the idea of allowing someone to post in the forum after a certain number of posts are made by them sounds like a possible idea.

[Magmar]

I like the number of posts, but I would also think a minimum of a month's active membership, or maybe three months, would be valid as well. After all, updating an access list case-by-case using the UBB must be difficult, and I'm not sure if we can implement post count/longevity limits on a subforum. Can we do that with this technology? Then you'd have to apply to get in, maybe? But how much of the administrative team's time should be spent on permissions for a spam forum? There's much to be ironed out... but I think we got this ;-)

[RedStarWarrior]

The capability to change permissions as you reach a post count number is in the software. After all, your label changes after a certain number of posts. I don't know how easy it would be to exploit the existing code to not only change your user title, but grant you access to a forum.

[VirtualPlay]

The capability to change permissions as you reach a post count number is in the software. After all, your label changes after a certain number of posts. I don't know how easy it would be to exploit the existing code to not only change your user title, but grant you access to a forum.

I don't know exactly how it works on vB, but I have worked with SMF and phpBB before, and both have it easy to add access to a certain forum based on postcount or length of account activity, even if it's a simple workaround such as "at 50 posts, you get rank 'Not-a-n00b'; all members with rank 'Not-a-n00b' or higher have access to 'not a n00b chat' board."

So yeah, the technology's there. The worst that they'll have to do is implement a mod to the forum that allows that to happen, but I honestly think the coding is already there. It just needs to be implemented.

As for my views on the whole thing, I'm willing to give it a try. If it fails horribly, we fix it and go back; if it works (or at least doesn't flop), we keep it around. I don't frequent Misc, so I don't see a lot of the crap that goes on here; heck, I'm only posting because I've been told many times about this topic so I came to check it out finally.

[Master Rudy]

Seeing how this is going I think we should just say the hell with talking about it. Just add it already, pick one or two mods and see what happens. At worse if it's a total mess/disaster then delete the fucker. Just make sure the mods know full well going in that if the board tanks that it may not be a long term job.

The capability to change permissions as you reach a post count number is in the software. After all, your label changes after a certain number of posts. I don't know how easy it would be to exploit the existing code to not only change your user title, but grant you access to a forum.

Shouldn't be too hard to program in Red. After all the private boards for the staff are only visible and accessable by those that are mods or higher. Therefore it shouldn't be too hard to program it to allow only those who are say Cool Trainer or higher into the spam forum.

[Kurosakura]

Shouldn't be too hard to program in Red. After all the private boards for the staff are only visible and accessable by those that are mods or higher. Therefore it shouldn't be too hard to program it to allow only those who are say Cool Trainer or higher into the spam forum.[/color]

*looks at post count and whistles* 400 posts until I'm legally allowed to spam!

Anyways, some people came back and made new accounts, like Systematic Revolution, and I'd like to think of myself as fairly productive, so the Cool Trainer title seems a bit unfair for those who contribute to TPM and aren't even allowed in a spam forum due to low post count.

[Houndoom_Lover]

Yeah, but tacking on extra rules to the place we don't even have yet kinda defeats the point. I say, let's start the bitch and we'll see what happens and add rules after.

:0

[abunaidesu]

I condone the post count seniority proposal.

[PNT510]

If new people wanna come in and spam in the spam forum then let them. It's a spam forum! It should be no porn and no advertising. Anything else goes.

[RedStarWarrior]

If new people wanna come in and spam in the spam forum then let them. It's a spam forum! It should be no porn and no advertising. Anything else goes.

Yes, so all the new spambots can easily post in there...

[Gavin Luper]

Yes, so all the new spambots can easily post in there...

What's the difference?

[RedStarWarrior]

What's the difference?

There's a difference between fun spam and advertising.

If you don't know, then gtfo.

[Heald]

Okay, I've read everyone's responses to ideas and everyone's suggestions, here is what I gather as a proposed consensus:

Name: Mt. Moon
- I propose that this be its starting name. In line with its theme as a silly forum, it could be changed every month or whenever as a joke.

Visibility: Members Only
Non-Members cannot even see the forum. Registered members can see the forum and view its contents.

Posting Privileges: Application
People apply to the Admins to be allowed access to post in the forum, like the Web Contributors Forum. The general minimum requirement will be set with anyone falling underneath the requirement rejected, except in special circumstances. The minimum requirement ought to be that you have to have been a member for at least a month. You must all have accrued 100 posts.

However, while this is a minimum requirement, it is not a guarantee. If the mods in charge of the forum deem the member is not worthy, his application is rejected and he must wait a week to reapply.

These stipulations and how to apply will be put on the 'warning' page.

Warning Page: Yes
If we can, once clicking to enter the forum the warning page will be displayed before going any further, basically stating 'Beware! Adult content! etc' as well as stating how to apply for posting privileges, although whether this is feasible or not depends on the board technology.

Rules: The bare minimum
Basically, rules ought to be the bare minimum, basically to avoid the forums from getting into any legal trouble or gaining a reputation of being particularly vile. So, hardcore porn, illegal porn, full frontal nudity and posting any sort of illegal content (including links to torrents and the like) is strictly forbidden. Without this compromise, I doubt our proposal will be accepted.

There has been some discussion about if certain language should be banned, such as overtly racist language (e.g. the 'n-word'). Although I don't condone it, I think at least to begin with, apart from obviously illegal stuff as noted above, everything is fair game. If people start being idiots and just spamming certain racial slurs over and over, then they can be shunned (see Moderation below). If there is a consensus that certain language ought to be banned after the board's creation, then we can implement it later. I'm not saying this to defend certain language, but it cannot truly be no holds barred if there are certain banned words.

Furthermore, apart from posting illegal content, it should be that you cannot get infracted on this board.

Moderation: 2-3 Mods
I think 3 Mods should be picked to moderate it. Since there seems to be an attitude over there being too many mods, and since there ought to be experienced members handing this forum, they ought to be picked from the existing staff force. If need be, some can step down from their current positions if they feel they would only want to mod a single forum, especially one to be as likely as volatile as this one. At a later date, if a member shows himself/herself to be capable, he or she could be modded as well. Perhaps even democratically!

Mods have a few duties: 1, they decide whose applications get approved (say like America's Got Talent, a majority of 2 to 1 means they are approved). 2, they delete illegal content, shit posts and choose what approved members get banned from the forum. 3, they decide if any threads are particularly funny and deserve to be archived. For this duty, obviously people can request a thread to be archived.

Other things:

Post Count Disabled: basically posts in Mt. Moon don't contribute to forum post count. This discourages shit posts, PC++ behaviour and other useless junk.

No Anonymity: People seem to overwhelmingly disagree with Anonymity, and so do I, so I guess that is no longer an issue.

1 Hour between Thread Creation: Just to stop people spamming crap threads and to encourage fresh, varied content. Works on other boards. Can be extended or removed after the board is created.

Max 30 threads: I say a maximum of 30 threads at once, at least to begin with. We can either increase or decrease this limit after the forum's creation if we need to, but I say 30 is a pretty good benchmark.

Place on the Forum: This is undecided. I am firmly against it being a subforum of Misc, but I say to begin with it goes in between Interactive and Archives. It can be moved later if we need to.
_____________

That's basically my proposal.

I think the sooner we get it up and running, the better it will be. It's going to end up we're going to sit here arguing over minor details that can be edited very easily after it is created, so unless you have a very real pressing concern, I say we just go for it with this proposal. Too much time spent tinkering is time wasted.

If you're against the spam forum, which I see a few people are, then don't participate. Easy enough. I don't like Anime but that doesn't mean I am against a forum being there.

If you're worried about member behaviour becoming worse due to this, I say that this will actually improve attitudes as all the flaming and spam happens in one concentrated area, rather than people trying to derail decent threads in Misc and other forums.

[Gavin Luper]

There's a difference between fun spam and advertising.

If you don't know, then gtfo.

Chill, dude. You're a mod, remember. Although I don't see that difference either really, but that's actually not what I meant. I meant, how is it more important to protect Mt. Moon from spambots than the rest of the actual forum?

Either way, it's open now. I guess this thread has served its purpose?

[PNT510]

Yes, so all the new spambots can easily post in there...

Just like they can easily post in the other dozen plus forums we have?

[shazza]

SPAM bots don't have self-awareness; I don't see them able to be clickin the warning thing before entering the forum!

As for allowing new members in or not at a certain quota of posts/time joined at, I'll sit on the fence for this one as I can see both logical sides of argument and don't particularly care either way.

[firepokemon]

Am I expected to read four pages or what?Mt. Moon wtf is that? Spew?

[firepokemon]

Can someone make a oneline summary of this thread for me?

[Jeff]

Waaah, too many mods. Let's make a spam forum, we'll call it Mt. Moon!

^ pretty much sums it up.

[shazza]

Yeah, fp, you can give me a kiss on the lips later for thinking of such a great name.

[Houndoom_Lover]

*dressed as Luigi Largo* Do I needta stab a bitch, Jeff? :0 My thread was no where near that whiny.

Also, I vote that the site has a movie night. Repo! will be playing.

[shazza]

I agree with Kurosakura; if there WAS going to be a minimum limit of postcount, it should be something like 100, not 500. There have been an influx of many new members in the past few months, mostly in ASB and RPG, who exhibit quality posts but still are only Junior Trainer's or Beginner Trainer's. TPM isn't very active these days, and to achieve 500 quality posts, let alone 100 posts, could take some time.

[Master Rudy]

I agree with Kurosakura; if there WAS going to be a minimum limit of postcount, it should be something like 100, not 500. There have been an influx of many new members in the past few months, mostly in ASB and RPG, who exhibit quality posts but still are only Junior Trainer's or Beginner Trainer's. TPM isn't very active these days, and to achieve 500 quality posts, let alone 100 posts, could take some time.

Merely an example guys. Just tossed out Cool Trainer as an example. It doesn't HAVE to be that paticular rank. Of course I don't really know how hard or easy it is to program that sort of thing. I know on some boards it's based on post number and on others it's based on rank. If the type of board TPM uses can only do it by rank then at the very least it would need to be set up to allow Jr Trainer or higher.

Besides 250 isn't really that high. On a day where I've really got nothing better to do I can easily put out 10-20 posts a day on a message board. And I'm talking decent posts, not crap ^_~

[Bear]

Hey, I used to spend countless hours in Mt Moon leveling up so I could beat that stupid level 16 Raticate. I resent it being the name of a Spam forum!

Seriously though, by creating a spam forum, aren't we just encouraging PC++ type behavior? I mean, I know that by making rules against spam we're potentially driving away members, but are they the types of members we even want in the first place? I don't think the desire to "break the rules" and post spam warrants creation of an entirely new subforum just for that purpose. Shouldn't we be encouraging people to resist the urge to spam and improve the overall quality of their posts instead? I dunno, maybe I'm just a crabby old fart who can't keep up with these young whippersnappers anymore...

[abunaidesu]

"the first 20 or so members that came to mind"

lol.

and you idiots wonder why the last "spam" forum died.

e; judging by the quality of the current posts, i can see mt. moon is going to last.

[kainashi]

e; judging by the quality of the current posts, i can see mt. moon is going to last.

post there then.

[Jeff]

It isn't postcount++ if posting there doesn't increase your post count. If people are just looking for a way to boost their post count, they won't find it there. So the only reason people would want to post there would be for fun.