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Thread: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

  1. #2721
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Hmm. I just read a fairly compelling argument about why the flagging economy isn't hurting Obama in the polls. The gist of it is that the majority of Republican voters think that the economy is in terrible shape, while only a very small minority of Democrats agree that we're in fiscal trouble.

    The difference stems from the increasingly partisan media. In general, right-wing voters are following news media outlets that say we're in an economic crisis, while left-wingers see news stories that either downplay the recession/depression or devote much more of their focus toward other topics.


    Here's my favorite paragraph of the article:

    “The influence of identification on attitudes toward the perceived elements of politics has been far more important than the influence of these attitudes on party identification itself,” the authors wrote. That is: Party identification appeared, at times, to trump voters' experience of reality.
    In short, the economy is developing into a non-issue for the two campaigns. Which begs the question... if the economy isn't a key issue in this election, what is?
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  2. #2722
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    the economy is.

    but not only the economy.

    a campaign based on it alone is folly, but this requires some explanation.

    economic voting theory relies on a fairly straightforward approach to rational social organization - in an election, voters are expected to legitimize their political representatives by asserting their self-interest (the economic sphere being primary). as a strictly modernist perspective, this does not really hold up to analysis: people do not necessarily choose based on long term interests, people are inadequately informed as to what economic policy entails, people often make selfless choices, and people do not necessarily make good choices.

    though certainly the economy remains a frequent sticking point, it would be nonsensical to discard all other aspects of the campaign. beginning with reagan, we can see a sharp transition into a non-rational electoral strategy: image management and emotional appeal override the persuasive argument we might expect. thus, "morning in america" and "the bear in the woods" stand out in the history of successful campaign strategy, but entirely operate through the manipulation of emotion on a personal level. consider:

    Morning in America:


    The Bear:


    these examples are pivotal, and yet entirely lacking substance. once in office, the reagan administration was quite famous for its control over communications - media access was strictly restricted to focus on the message of the day, with its planning contingent on a strong focus on public relations. the voter can not be expected to make an informed choice about anything given restricted access to information - in such circumstances, the economic voter is actually acting towards delegitimization of the administration.

    similarly (and via the continued service of reagan-era consultants), we see the manipulation of dukakis' record as governor of massachusetts being performed by the bush campaign: stump speeches criticized dukakis for failing to clean the polluted boston harbor; for vetoing a state-level school pledge mandate; for allowing the willie horton furlough. rationally, we might consider that: such enduring pollution might be consequent to reagan administration EPA cuts; such pledge legislation was already ruled unconstitutional; the furlough system was developed under a republican administration. note that bush had no particular interest in reversing any of these policies: they served to provoke an emotional response. dukakis largely attempted to ignore what he felt to be nonsensical claims, and certainly did not counterattack with the same method, sticking instead to economic policy proposals.

    the 1992 election is something of a wash due to the perot interception, but we can observe some interesting aspects. notably, bush's approach changed in this campaign, with the departure of ailes and atwater as consultants - essentially running on the expectation that people would reasonably choose to allow an incumbent to continue on the basis of previous successes. the clinton and perot campaigns, of course, were focused around economic issues, and might serve as an interesting watermark for such voter interests at around 60% of total popular support. contemporary polling also had around 60% of the population claiming "the economy" was the most important issue. at the same time, each campaign was not exactly diametrically opposed on economic policies (for example, one could select from a mixture of shared approaches to NAFTA, social spending, and deficit control between the three candidates). what does "the economy" entail? did anyone really vote against a particular economic approach in this election?

    by 1996 we can observe two important trends in the rise of endless media coverage and the slickness of clinton's policy agenda. in short, we find the arrival of policy triangulation and the permanent campaign. clinton moved quickly to secure a position as a moderate by hijacking some aspects of policy where polling indicated advantage. whereas dole relied on experience and traditional values to justify broader campaign proposals, clinton moved to gain support through targeting various special interests, through metaphorical oration, and through casual exploitation of his personal charm. as noted, the importance of the permanent campaign arises when we consider the constant travel and policy advertisement that occured between elections - clinton was attempting to be everywhere and all things to all people.

    the campaigns of bush v. gore sort of lack differentiation in this respect (they both tried to be centrists) and ended in a tie anyway. let's skip to bush v. kerry. by this point, we have a fairly well developed set of campaign practices: image control, personal emotional appeal and the permanent campaign are central. an interesting development arises from the combination of these factors: contextual truth. but this was neither trivial nor accidental. consider karl rove's remarks:

    The aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality—judiciously, as you will—we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors…and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do."
    consequently, we find that the goal of the postmodern campaign is to:

    a) connect to the individual;
    b) do so on a personal and emotional level;
    c) do so via the ephemeral nature of media coverage and the social web;
    d) manipulate the voter's interpretation of real events and circumstances via a,b,c.

    thus, popular support is secured for the time being. one hopes that the correct side of this campaign cycle is on top on election day.

    in 2008, both mccain and obama attempted to use these principles in their campaigns. we can see how criticism as a "celebrity president" arises from this style of politics, as the more traditional policy-based rationality is discarded in favor of, well, you all remember this part. institutionally, it might be instructive to look at obama's approach to the long tail of politics - via the mobilization of tens of thousands of interest groups at the smallest level (each driven by self-motivated integration), we find unveiled the stage on which the individual person forms their own personal attachment to the campaign.

    from this approach, we can see that "key issues in this election" is not an objective category. what feels important to you today? how can this feeling be developed and exploited?

    such is the realm of the postmodern campaign. only at some points, and for some people, will "the economy" be the answer. one could question rational policy consequences, but successful campaigns no longer operate with a focus on that goal.

  3. #2723
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Republicans sicken me.

    This news report came over the wire:

    Two U.S. Border Patrol Agents were shot, one fatally, in a morning gunfight in southern Arizona, according to Fox News.

    The names of the agents were not immediately known, but the shootout occurred near a station in Naco.
    Why does this lead to my claim that Republicans sicken me? Because I am seeing page after page of Republicans responding making accusations, without the slightest bit of proof, that this was another result of the Fast and Furious program.

    We know almost nothing about this case right now, not who the gunmen were, not who they were affiliated with, and certainly not where they obtained the guns from. The victims haven't even been identified yet. But simply because of the place where it occured, the trolls are nonetheless out, saying "we can chalk this up to another failure on Obama's record".

    It sickens me.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Dude..

    A: Calm down, it is wrong for you to attribute a few people for a entire party.

    B: This very well could be the result of the Fast and Furious Program, considering how many guns went to Mexico.

    Not to mention a major cartel leader was captured today with Fast and Furious guns on him

    By the way I noticed you have not responded to the whole thing of Obama paying for companies to break the law.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 2nd October 2012 at 10:08 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Don't worry, Roy, I feel much better now.

    See, the Pennsylvania judge made his ruling. The voter ID law in that state has been blocked until next year.

    Sorry, Mike...

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Don't worry, Roy, I feel much better now.

    See, the Pennsylvania judge made his ruling. The voter ID law in that state has been blocked until next year.

    Sorry, Mike...
    And I am sure it will rightfully be appealed, I still do not see you replying to any of the previous arguments.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    And I am sure it will rightfully be appealed, I still do not see you replying to any of the previous arguments.
    Appealed?

    Reality check, Roy. It has to go back to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court for that, the very same court that sent it back to him with instructions that pretty much forced him to block it.

    I wish I could have seen the look on Mike Turzai's face when the ruling was read. It would have been priceless.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Appealed?

    Reality check, Roy. It has to go back to the Pennsylvania State Supreme Court for that, the very same court that sent it back to him with instructions that pretty much forced him to block it.

    I wish I could have seen the look on Mike Turzai's face when the ruling was read. It would have been priceless.
    They forced him to block it if they do not make changes, all they need to do is make the changes now and appeal to the Supreme Court and explain they met their requirements. And again I see no reply to anything previously including the Fast and Furious things.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    They forced him to block it if they do not make changes, all they need to do is make the changes now and appeal to the Supreme Court and explain they met their requirements. And again I see no reply to anything previously including the Fast and Furious things.
    There is no proof that the gunmen in the case I mentioned belonged to any crime cartels, or even any proof that they were Mexican citizens. We know next to nothing about this crime at the moment, and it galls me that people think Fast and Furious was the cause.

    For all we know, the perps could have bought the weapons at an Arizona gun shop like any member of the NRA could have done.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    There is no proof that the gunmen in the case I mentioned belonged to any crime cartels, or even any proof that they were Mexican citizens. We know next to nothing about this crime at the moment, and it galls me that people think Fast and Furious was the cause.

    For all we know, the perps could have bought the weapons at an Arizona gun shop like any member of the NRA could have done.
    So let me get this straight, border patrol agents are shot after checking on a alarm on the Mexican Border, in the middle of no where, at 1 am at night, near a major drug corador, and your thoughts are that it could be guys from the NRA?! C'MON!
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 2nd October 2012 at 11:04 AM.

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    Uh huh... And what did the Mexican drug lords use before Obama was President? It's been a big problem down there for a very long time, and predates Fast and Furious by many years.

    A criminal organization is going to get guns one way or another, and the Mexican drug syndacates had many ways to get them other than one botched sting operation.

    Btw, you don't "get guns from the NRA". They are not in the business of selling or making guns. They are in the business of lobbying for gun rights.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 2nd October 2012 at 11:09 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Uh huh... And what did the Mexican drug lords use before Obama was President? It's been a big problem down there for a very long time, and predates Fast and Furious by many years.

    A criminal organization is going to get guns one way or another, and the Mexican drug syndacates had many ways to get them other than one botched sting operation.
    Difference is that we are literally giving the guns to them, we are arming cartels with weapons, sometimes better than what the Mexican Police and Military has. And it just isn't cartels on the border! The U.S. Government has been shipping weapons to drug organizations to multiple countries!

    Edit: This comes from the House Investigation Committee

    Quote Originally Posted by AP
    American diplomats in Libya made repeated requests for increased security for the consulate in Benghazi and were turned down by officials in Washington, leaders of a House committee said Tuesday.

    In a letter to Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, Chairman Darrell Issa and Rep. Jason Chaffetz said their information came from "individuals with direct knowledge of events in Libya."

    Issa, R-Calif. and Chaffetz, R-Utah said the Sept. 11 attack in Benghazi that killed Ambassador Chris Stevens and three other Americans was the latest in a long line of attacks on Western diplomats and officials in Libya in the months before Sept. 11.
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/house...s-denied-libya

    Edit Again: Vice President Biden today made the argument that Obama should NOT be re-elected today.



    The man truly is, the gift that keeps on giving.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 2nd October 2012 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    In other news, a new poll on Gallup came out yesterday that was quite interesting. This is an opinion poll, so it may not truly mean anything, but opinions can show how much faith people have in candidates.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/157835/am...b-debates.aspx

    As you can see, 57 percent of those polled believe that Mr. Obama will do a better job in the debates, compared to 33 percent who believe Romney will, more than a twenty-point lead for Mr. Obama.

    Clearly, I am far from alone in my belief that the whole "Mr. Obama needs teleprompters to function thing" is a myth.

    Also of note in this poll, nine out of then Democrats believe that Obama will do better, while three fourths of Republicans polled think that Romney will do better. Clearly, that means that Democrats have more faith in their own candidate than the GOP has in theirs. Of course, I could have told you that a long time ago.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 3rd October 2012 at 05:38 AM.

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    No reply? The report released from the House Investigation Committee shows that the State Department ignored warnings and you have nothing to say? Nor you have anything to say about slow Joe coming out and supporting Romney for President?

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    I just don't care, and neither does anyone else who supports Obama. You're beating a dead horse.

    After all, the Republicans never seemed to care about the bloody war that Bush started in order to find weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist.

    Btw, Roy, I have yet to find a single person online who even watched that special on Univision. When I mentioned it once, one person even accused me of being a Republican, telling me, "I hope you and the three other people who watched that farce enjoyed it."

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I just don't care, and neither does anyone else who supports Obama. You're beating a dead horse.

    After all, the Republicans never seemed to care about the bloody war that Bush started in order to find weapons of mass destruction that didn't exist.
    And... what exactly does that have to do with anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Btw, Roy, I have yet to find a single person online who even watched that special on Univision. When I mentioned it once, one person even accused me of being a Republican, telling me, "I hope you and the three other people who watched that farce enjoyed it."
    And I ask again, what does that have to do with anything? I mean did you interview Spanish speaking radiance or what? Because if not your point is pretty much nill.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    And I ask again, what does that have to do with anything? I mean did you interview Spanish speaking radiance or what? Because if not your point is pretty much nill.
    YES. I have many Latino friends.

    And Roy, we both know the real reason why you and the rest of the GOP are pushing this consolate attack for all it is worth, and it NOT justice for the four victims. You are doing exactly what Romney did, using it as a political tool to try to make Obama and Clinton look bad, and that is downright despicable.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    YES. I have many Latino friends.
    And that is supposed to be a fair representation of the Latino community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    And Roy, we both know the real reason why you and the rest of the GOP are pushing this consolate attack for all it is worth, and it NOT justice for the four victims. You are doing exactly what Romney did, using it as a political tool to try to make Obama and Clinton look bad, and that is downright despicable.
    You know I honestly could have predicted this line of attack, because when ever things turn out to be bad, from the Benguazi attack to Fast and Furious, suddenly it is not worth investigating, suddenly it is merely just a political tool to make some one look bad. Here is the thing, they look bad for their own actions alone in this, those that died deserve to have justice. And right now that justice should be the firing of Mrs. Clinton. Because like it or not she ABSOLUTELY took place in this Libya problem, the buck stops with her when it comes to responsibility for these deaths.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 3rd October 2012 at 09:32 AM.

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    Well she's not going to be fired, so you and the rest of the Republicans saying that she should are going to be disappointed.

    And the House is not going to investigate the issue, because they decided to skip town until Election Day and are going to have a far more serious problem to deal with when they come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Well she's not going to be fired, so you and the rest of the Republicans saying that she should are going to be disappointed.
    In which case the pressure should remain to inform the public as to how woefully inept the State Department was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    And the House is not going to investigate the issue, because they decided to skip town until Election Day and are going to have a far more serious problem to deal with when they come back.
    Is that why today Clinton said she would cooperate with any investigation launched by the House?

    http://www.nationaljournal.com/natio...ttack-20121003

    Or how about that the House want a answer from Clinton by the 8th with hearings being launched by the 10th.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/house-wants-a...-attack-799075
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 3rd October 2012 at 10:00 AM.

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    Another thing, Roy, take a look at this

    http://www.latinodecisions.com/files...nes_week_6.pdf

    Even if Univision's special was, indeed, watched by the majority of this country's Latino population, it seems to have done little to lower their voter enthusiasm or support for Mr. Obama.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Another thing, Roy, take a look at this

    http://www.latinodecisions.com/files...nes_week_6.pdf

    Even if Univision's special was, indeed, watched by the majority of this country's Latino population, it seems to have done little to lower their voter enthusiasm or support for Mr. Obama.
    We will see by election day, they do not need to support Mitt Romney, all they need to do is stay home in protest for the massacre happening in Mexico, funded by the Obama Administration.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    The poll I linked too says that 83% said they will definately vote, Roy, compared to 4% who said they weren't going to...

    Maybe you should actually look at it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    The poll I linked too says that 83% said they will definately vote, Roy, compared to 4% who said they weren't going to...

    Maybe you should actually look at it?
    And as I said we will see election day.

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    I don't think a botched sting operation is going to cause that much of a shift.

    A political upheaval or an outright revolution might, if that many Latinos were still loyal to Mexico. (Although if they were, you have to wonder why they left.) But I don't think a botched sting operation is gonna do it.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I don't think a botched sting operation is going to cause that much of a shift.

    A political upheaval or an outright revolution might, if that many Latinos were still loyal to Mexico. (Although if they were, you have to wonder why they left.) But I don't think a botched sting operation is gonna do it.
    You do realize this is more than a botched sting operation, as the Univision documentary showed, this went to numerous countries, and resulted in massacres with actual blood running down the streets, including one happening at a 16 year old Birthday Party.

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    Roy, I didn't watch the documentary. I was watching Once Upon a Time, as I'm sure about 9 out of 10 Americans were at that time slot.

    I think that Daniel Issa's investigation is a big waste of taxpayer money that is never going to go anywhere. In fact, every time I look at him, he starts to look more like Ken Starr.

    Guns fall into the hands of criminals all the time. I can name a dozen times in recent history when our government has been responsible for it, many of them during GOP adminstrations. This is not an issue, this is a political game being played by the GOP, and no-one really cares about it. You Republicans are desperate to stick Obama with a scandal, but have yet to find one that is even as scandalous as Whitewater was. It's dirty politics, and it's not working.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Roy, I didn't watch the documentary. I was watching Once Upon a Time, as I'm sure about 9 out of 10 Americans were at that time slot.
    Damn so one show got a 90% Nelson rating? That is up there with 9/11!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I think that Daniel Issa's investigation is a big waste of taxpayer money that is never going to go anywhere. In fact, every time I look at him, he starts to look more like Ken Starr.
    So you compare the deaths of Americans to a President lying under oath?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Guns fall into the hands of criminals all the time. I can name a dozen times in recent history when our government has been responsible for it, many of them during GOP adminstrations. This is not an issue, this is a political game being played by the GOP, and no-one really cares about it. You Republicans are desperate to stick Obama with a scandal, but have yet to find one that is even as scandalous as Whitewater was. It's dirty politics, and it's not working.
    So a massacre at a 16 year old's birthday party by weapons allowed into Mexico at the blessing of the U.S. Government is not a scandal? The failings of our embassy in Benguazi despite ample warnings and protests of those there is not a scandal? The Obama Administration lying on television is not a scandal? You know your bar for scandal is set so woefully high it is beginning to get insane.

    By the way Romney has a new ad out today featuring none other than Slow Joe.



    They are right, Joe Biden couldn't have said it better. The Middle Class HAS been buried these last four years.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    That's the second time you posted it.

    I prefer Slow Joe to Lyin' Ryan.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    That's the second time you posted it.
    Actually that is the new ad for today, I posted the raw clip yesterday.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I prefer Slow Joe to Lyin' Ryan.
    All Politicians lie, I believe you, yourself have admitted that. So why do you prefer someone who seems borderline retarded sometimes as opposed to a very smart politician when it comes to being one heartbeat away from the Presidency?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Smart?

    Tell me, Roy, what exactly has Ryan done in all his years in Congress? What bills has he proposed which were successfully passed?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Smart?

    Tell me, Roy, what exactly has Ryan done in all his years in Congress? What bills has he proposed which were successfully passed?
    So suddenly the passing of laws is a indication of being smart? Not the writing of the bills in which he has shown his brilliance, but the actual passing of laws which relies on two Houses of Congress and a Presidency? I mean honestly Paul Ryan's brilliance has even been praised by President Obama.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    He's done nothing, Roy, every important bill he proposed was defeated.

    He also voted for several unsuccessful programs, like No Child Left Behind, and need I remind you he contributed to more than one bill for zero tolerance on abortion.

  34. #2754
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    He's done nothing, Roy, every important bill he proposed was defeated.
    And? How about we judge his brilliance by the content of his bills, and not the votes of others shall we?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    He also voted for several unsuccessful programs, like No Child Left Behind,
    A bill co-written by I believe the Liberal Lion Ted Kennedy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    and need I remind you he contributed to more than one bill for zero tolerance on abortion.
    And? Shall we go into some of Obama's infanticide votes? I believe we have been down this road before already.

  35. #2755
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Preview of tonight's Misc Presidential Election thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage
    Stating the opinion that Barack Obama won the debate as fact. Continues to use opinions and anecdotal 'evidence' to support opinion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde
    Stating the opinion that Mitt Romney won the debate as fact. Continues to use opinions and anecdotal 'evidence' to support opinion.
    There will be a short recess at 0100 GMT for people who aren't Dark Sage or Roy Karrde to state how much they are enjoying life at this moment.

    In all seriousness though, I probably won't stay up to watch the debates. I've just bought a new can of paint, I might paint a wall and watch it dry. What colour? Find out this and more on the next episode of Everybody Loves Heald.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lady Vulpix
    You have turned my vacation thread into a discussion about Heald's balls. You should be ashamed of yourselves.




  36. #2756
    You crook! Ya CRIMINAL!! Veteran Trainer
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    0100 GMT means 8:00 at night EST, right?

    I'll bring the popcorn and soda. Someone else bring some candy. Halloween is on the way anyway; someone's bound to have some Raisinettes or Gummi bears, right?

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  37. #2757
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    debate is at 9pm eastern, lasts 90 minutes

  38. #2758
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Fine, Heald.

    I solemnly swear that I will not give my personal opinion on any part of it at all, and if I lie, I will be here tomorrow telling everyone what a great guy Mr. Romney is.

    But I may quote other political pundits and experts on it.

    Now, I ask Mr. Roy Karrde to swear to a similar promise, so that we can keep the whole discussion non-biased and factual.

    Edit: To answer your question, Blade, yeah. It's a mystery to me why Election Day is so close to Halloween... You really shouldn't have an even scarier event take place so soon after October 31st.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 3rd October 2012 at 04:01 PM.

  39. #2759
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Fine, Heald.

    I solemnly swear that I will not give my personal opinion on any part of it at all, and if I lie, I will be here tomorrow telling everyone what a great guy Mr. Romney is.

    But I may quote other political pundits and experts on it.

    Now, I ask Mr. Roy Karrde to swear to a similar promise, so that we can keep the whole discussion non-biased and factual.
    So let me get this straight, you are not going to give your personal opinion but you plan to quote people who will support your own personal opinion, there by giving a defacto personal opinion on it.

    So no, I am not going to make a promise to merely just quote pundits and experts just to cherry step around giving my opinion.

  40. #2760
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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    I don't "plan" to do anything. I said I "may".

    I certainly won't do what Heald claims I'm going to do.

    Heck, I may not watch the debate at all. It's been a long day, and I'm tired. I doubt anything Romney could say would convince me to vote for him anyway.

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