Is this what you'd expect from your Military?

[Ultimate Charizard]

Im sorry i had to get this off my chest. Been looking at random things on the Internet and came across a site with Video clips from the War in Iraq. Ill send people the link if they want but i wont for now incase its advertising.
The last person i showed this too had previously always brought up the 'Im happy to live in a country with a Military force i can be proud of' argument. He does live in America and when i showed him this clip his opinion quickly changed.

I dont want to turn this political but ive seen a video, whether it was aired on tv im not sure where there was an Injured Iraqi 'soldier' (no armour just an AK by his side) lying on the floor screaming injured. It took the US troops about 50 yards away 4 shots to kill him. The previous 3 were nowhere near. Now im no military tactician, so whether a man 'neutralised' but injured still classes as a target for a kill im not sure however im pretty sure hearing a bunch of trigger happy yanks (sorry i mean respected soldiers) whooping and cheering with remarks of 'yeah got im' and 'lets find another and do that again' is something to be proud of.
The next video reffered to what Music the US forces liked to be played over their Intercom system while in a conflict situation.
Im not trying to make a general slur, i have US friends and i know your not all violent gun-toting mindless fools (i dont even include TMM in that bracket ), and im not trying to say the UK army is any better (we have things to be ashamed of during this war too) but i find the whole attitude towards the US military force cocky and arrogant, especially when they did all this in front of TV cameras.
Im not saying the entire armed forces are like this either. But having these Primates reprisenting your country, and then having another Chimp leading them saying 'we are doing out part in Iraq'.....can you possibly agree with them?
Any thoughts?

[mr_pikachu]

...I'll almost certainly be flamed for this post, but oh well. All I have to say is that a couple of morons in the armed forces doesn't make the military as a whole bad. Trying to argue that every person in the military has good intentions would be idiotic; many of the incidents in Guantanamo Bay are proof enough of that. But I have to believe that the vast majority of U.S. (as well as U.K. and other allied nations') soldiers take this war very seriously. It's not an action-packed video game, it's a life-or-death struggle. I think that most of the soldiers in this war realize that, and it's a shame that small clusters of imbeciles are present to disgrace the military as a whole.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Well if you get flamed it wont be from me. I tried to make the same point that i wasnt blaming the entire Armed forces. I understand it is just a couple of idiots who are treating this whole thing like a Giant video game. However the scale doesnt really matter. Unfortunately the public dont get to meet, and get the opinion of every soldier involved. Its the things we see on these reports that mould our opinions. Its simply infuriating to see this sort of attitude present in the people who are supposed to be responsibly acting on behalf of their country.

[Roy Karrde]

Damn you UC for starting this while Im away! Now first off this is the first major war in the info age. This shit has happened since before WW2 does it make it right? Well remember these guys go through hell every God damn day, and deal with bastards that would do worse if the tables were turned. To call them anything but heroes. For placing their lives on the line each day, while serving their country. None of them knowing if they will ever see their loved ones again. Well these guys are heroes.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Oh Please!. Ill agree that hate for your enemy is understandable but ffs, enemy or not these are real people, soldiers like themselves.
Im not talking about terrorists or Suicide Bombers or whatever. During the war on Iraq the troops we were attacking werent Terrorists as the Propaganda pushers wanted us to beleive, they were Soldiers. The regular Iraqi army, the one were working alongside now. Theyre leader may have been an evil son'bitch but at the end of the day they were just Soldiers following orders just like our own troops. Being a muslim, wearing a turban or having a beard does not make you a terrorist, they were just Iraqi soldiers doing their job. And now the refusal to withdraw which i fully beleive isnt a need to 'see actions through' more a good staging ground to move into Iran. There is no need for Military presence in Iraq anymore. We have our man, now leave them to it. The only reason these men are risking their lives everyday is because the Locals dont want them there and Bush wont pull them out!.
The way the soldiers in the clip i saw were acting reminded me of school bullies kicking a wounded dog.

How can you call any Soldier a hero? Yes i agree they put their lives on the line, they have a dangerous job but thats what it is. A Job. The way you say it anyone who signs up to the army is a hero. Why? Becasue he fired a gun? Because he shot an unarmed man? I know people that have signed up for the British armed forces, and you know why they signed up.

Its good pay and i only have to stay 5 years, then i drop out and find a normal job.
Its not like were going to go to war anytime soon

Im well aware there will be men like this in the British Army, dont get me wrong im not attacking the US only, its just the US that gave the example. These men i would not call heroes.
Are the Dozen or so British Soldiers killed by US friendly fire heroes? The ones that didnt get to see any actual combat time? What were there heroic actions? Improving the US aim?

Look im not meaning to rant. Im not attacking the US Military ok so before all the patriots arrive to flame me (oh our boys are heroes we always bail you out BS) I will say i respect the skill of the majority of your armed forces (Ours are better though ) however the actions of these idiotic individuals was just downright irresponsible. Especially the 'lets do that again' part which basically translates to 'lets go find another injured guy with no way of defending himself and take potshots untill one of us manages to kill him'. And i have no doubt that its the idiots that act like this are in the military so they can shoot, and kill and do it legally.
I also use the term 'injured guy' loosely as the word 'fairground target' would have been more apt.

[mr_pikachu]

Well, I'm not sure I agree with the part about defining heroism. I mean, if someone signs up for the armed forces - knowing full well that he or she may die in the process - for the intent of serving one's country, I'd call that a bit heroic. Some people might prefer to call it something like taking a gamble, but I think there's some noble heroism in that sort of action. It may not be on the same level as, say, someone who rushes into a burning building to save someone (the military equivalent of which would be combat, which some soldiers never experience). But I still think that displays a degree of heroism.

I have to disagree with calling these punks heroes, though. Yes, stress can have severely detrimental effects on those in combat. I fully believe that it can cause permanent psychological and physiological damage. But to me, that still doesn't seem to be an excuse to treat real, living people as video game characters. When something like this happens, there's a little thing called a court-martial that tests the legitimacy of those actions. (Not to mention that if they were traumatized by the violence, I don't think they'd be wildly celebrating causing more chaos.) Such actions, from my standpoint, more than negate any "typical" war heroism (see first paragraph) which may have otherwise been displayed.

[Ultimate Charizard]

I just watched the video again, as i said i cant post it on here, not only is it advertising but the site has chosen to sponsor itself with 'sites of an adult nature' so i wont be posting it on a board like this however, before anyone would like to say its all 'heat of the battle' the Whooping and cheering came after the kill, all Soldiers were stood around not looking too bothered so im assuming they werent in combat and i couldnt see a weapon on the victim.
The interview with one of the soldiers afterwards was where the quote came from and this was an interview for CNN.
(Soldier)"You know he's dead now (starts to smile)...but its a good feeling and your like 'Hell yeah that was awesome, damn lets do it again'"

Thats the exact quote and the soldier in question was just some young punk that wouldve looked more at home in a Bill and Ted movie.
Again anyone who does want to see this ask me and ill PM you the address. Whether you look is your own choice.

[nightcrow]

UC, you're an idiot, yet another ignorant fool who really has NO CLUE.

not flaming, it's a statement i believe.

HELLO. these men are killing people on a daily basis. could you handle knowing you are killing someone who probably has a wife and children and is only doing what he is doing because he was told to? well it is exactly the same as the fight the american soldiers (or any soldier at that) have to fight. you have to distance yourself from it, make it a game, make it something unreal so the reality of it doesn't make you insane. i know, my father was in the military and spent years in the middle east. my dad wasn't even on the field but he still came back a very different person. the work the military does has to be pretty much the hardest job to do, both physically and mentally. so stop complaining about what they have to do to make it impersonal while you sit on your lard ass complaining about OMG HOW UNETHICAL IT IS. OH GOD.

sorry this is kind of a bitter subject for me. nothing personal.

[Magmar]

How much longer before we've wiped out all the Iraqis? Seriously, how many of them ARE there? Sounds like we're killing tons of them every week.

I'm SO sick of this war.

-B

[Ultimate Charizard]

Ok Nightcrow. You go ask your dad if its ok to make a game out of using an injured enemy soldier as Target practice then cheering. This wasnt a combat situation is what im trying to get across. The US soldiers werent crouched or protecting themselves, they were all leant by cars watching their buddies take this one injured guy out and then celebrating.
The report was (as ive already said) for CNN and even the reporters voice didnt exactly sound too happy. I understand being at war isnt exactly a fun thing but there are lines that arent crossed. Do you condone the acts of the US soldiers in Vietnam? (again, sorry if im picking on the US). Sure alot of them came back changed but there were charges and reports of plain rape and pilliaging of Viatnamese villiages. Is that ok because it was at war? Because they were morally 'switched off'?.
I know thats a bit of an extreme example but soldiers or not they still have rules. Surely im not the only one that can see the point im trying to make?

[Blademaster]

Surely im not the only one that can see the point im trying to make?

(raises hand)

No, I understand, too. And that's all I'm gonna say, 'cuz I'm not in the mood to argue about the war, Monkey W. Bush, or whatever else.

Later.

-Blade

[phaedrus]

the question for america is: are arabs people?

of course, once that is defined, everything else is set in its course.

[Co1]

Hi all, I read these forums a lot but I don't often post. Either way I thought i'd offer my two cents.

Upon reading your account of the video, UC, I kind of said to myself, "What's the big deal?" I know that's harsh, but let me explain.

That kind of behaviour is not new to modern warfare at all. It's been going on since World War I (considered the first modern war by most). The thing is though that now, like someone else mentioned, soldiers are being forced to do their jobs with a TV camera following them the whole time. And then the stories being reported cast the military in a horrible light. Ultimately, the behaviour of those soldiers wasn't exactly something to write home about. But we watch these Hollywood sugarcoated war movies with Tom Hanks or Nicolas Cage talking about duty and honour and we have this heroic noble version of soldiers. TV cameras and Hollywood rarely take into account the hellish conditions soldiers are exposed to, so it's really easy for all of us eating our dinners in front of the TV to say, "Those soldiers are awful!" without actually having a clue.

It's not reserved to one specific nationality. This has been done by the British, Americans, Canadians, Australians, Russians, etc, throughout the twentieth century. The problem lies with the fact that we're all sitting at home with our cushy lifestyles. It makes it impossible to actually comprehend what's actually going on over there.

[Gavin Luper]

As an Australian, I hold our military in very high regard, as do most aussies. However, as much as I respect and am grateful for what soldiers (Australian, American or otherwise) do - and what they sacrifice - I cannot turn a blind eye to this kind of crap. I'm sure it goes on in many armies, though it would seem to be most prominent in the American military - quite simply because that "shoot 'em up", trigger-happy attitude sprung up largely out of the dubious social cauldron that is America.

Going to war would be hell, I have absolutely no doubts about that. And, as UC and mr_pikachu said, war can and does have massive impacts on soldiers, both psychologically and physiologically (thanks Brian).

But that doesn't validate this kind of behaviour in any way. I haven't seen the video, but by the description given, it sounds like little more than cruel, unwarranted murder. You can talk about being "morally switched off" all you like, but the truth is that you need to cope with your responsibilities as a soldier in a mature way: that is, accept the reality of what you are doing and wield the weapons you hold with nobility and seriousness, not with the reckless stupidity and immaturity of a child reared on Rambo and violent video games. I don't believe my 'cushy' life prevents me from comprehending this particular situation: these soldiers are in no condition mentally to be fighting a war. They are behaving incredibly foolishly. I understand it's often necessary to detach oneself from the situation when first coping with killing, but the situation depicted in the video is detachment taken to a dangerous and unnecessary level.

What I'm trying to say is, this is very, very wrong and disturbing (not that this is the first I've heard of this kind of thing) and I don't think it's comforting to find that these are the kind of people who are defending our countries. Obviously not all of them are like this, and many soldiers today would, I think, have very high levels of integrity and maturity. That said, this is still appalling.

Hmmm.

Cheers!

[nightcrow]

Ok Nightcrow. You go ask your dad if its ok to make a game out of using an injured enemy soldier as Target practice then cheering. This wasnt a combat situation is what im trying to get across. The US soldiers werent crouched or protecting themselves, they were all leant by cars watching their buddies take this one injured guy out and then celebrating.
The report was (as ive already said) for CNN and even the reporters voice didnt exactly sound too happy. I understand being at war isnt exactly a fun thing but there are lines that arent crossed. Do you condone the acts of the US soldiers in Vietnam? (again, sorry if im picking on the US). Sure alot of them came back changed but there were charges and reports of plain rape and pilliaging of Viatnamese villiages. Is that ok because it was at war? Because they were morally 'switched off'?.
I know thats a bit of an extreme example but soldiers or not they still have rules. Surely im not the only one that can see the point im trying to make?

Of course it's not right in a moral sense, but you try to tell me war in itself is in any way moral. Besides, the men often put in these situations are often adults, but that doesn't mean they are grown up-- a very good example of this is vietnam. All in all many of them are still kids in a sense.

Also, by having someone else do the dirty work for the rest of us, i think it's only fair we turn a blind eye to certain people's "immorality".

[Chris]

How can you call any Soldier a hero?

I'm going to bite at this bit, because how many times do you wake up in the morning and think, "well, I might actually die today!" - those in active service in Iraq are facing that prospect daily right now. Regardless of whether it's their job, I still have an infinite amount of respect for them. They could have chosen a far cushier option.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Ok i misphrased that comment. I didnt mean to negate what theyre doing out there and i have nothing but respect for the men and women doing their jobs properly. Rather that it was their choice to do it. It is their jobs and although dangerous there are thousands of dangerous jobs out there that have a very real risk to life and limb but we dont consider them heroes because 'they werent doing it for their country' or 'it was their job to do that'

Ill bet you the troops out there dont consider themselves heroes, except maybe these immature examples i brought out.

I notice a couple seem to be questioning my attitudes to war itself. This is not a 'is war bad' debate at all. I am questioning the actions of a small group (possibly even one squad) of soldiers who are treating this entire situation as a giant video game. An excuse to turn Murder into fun.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Of course it's not right in a moral sense, but you try to tell me war in itself is in any way moral. Besides, the men often put in these situations are often adults, but that doesn't mean they are grown up-- a very good example of this is vietnam. All in all many of them are still kids in a sense.

Also, by having someone else do the dirty work for the rest of us, i think it's only fair we turn a blind eye to certain people's "immorality".

You have absolutely no idea do you.
As someone who has volunteered for service but was turned down (medical reasons) its the people like you that bother me. You seem just as immoral as these idiots im picking out. Your basically saying as long as your not in danger then who cares what they do.
Trying to liken the attitude of a solider to childlike is plain moronic. Right, so a good portion of our kids are no more mature than 5 year olds...what shall we do, i know lets train them to be killing machines and arm them to the teeth.

Immorality has no place anywhere. They have a job to do and theres a way to do it properly without becoming immature murderers.

[Roy Karrde]

Ok i misphrased that comment. I didnt mean to negate what theyre doing out there and i have nothing but respect for the men and women doing their jobs properly. Rather that it was their choice to do it. It is their jobs and although dangerous there are thousands of dangerous jobs out there that have a very real risk to life and limb but we dont consider them heroes because 'they werent doing it for their country' or 'it was their job to do that'

Actually many people do, down here in Texas we have something called the 'Hero's Parade' put on each year on September 11th or around that time by a local Radio Host, Russ Martin. Each year thousands upon thousands go on a parade from downtown Dallas to either Texas Stadium or somewhere else. This parade consists of Police and Firefighters from all over Texas, along with Military officers. To me Police, Firefighters, and Military are heros, I know none of those men or women consider themselves heros, but they are. Getting up everyday and doing a job in which you put your life on the line for others is what I consider a hero and is why I made the statement above a few nights ago.

To find out more about the Hero's Parade, along with the Police and Firefighter Foundation which pays money to the family of Police and Firemen that have fallen in the line of duty, follow the link below. Yet be warned about Adult Material on the other pages of the site. http://www.russmartin.com/listeners_foundation.asp

[Ultimate Charizard]

Right this Hero business needs clearing up now.

The way i see it, Enrollment into a force which would put your lives at risk, such as the ones Roy has mentioned does not automatically make you a Hero. The actions you do while there define your 'hero status'. The ones that give their lives doing this job are heroes. The ones that sit around and get out of the tough jobs, or just make a mockery of everything they stand for are not.

The reason this infuriated me so much is simply because they appear no better than the one we went in after. Saddam was wanted for needless murder and Genocide. Exactly the same as what these 'soldiers' (and i use the term loosely) were doing.

And i dont want to start a political debate but most of the support for these guys seems to be coming from the US posters while the non Americans seem to be getting my point....can i just ask would you have been so defensive if it wasnt 'your boys' i was questioning?

[Ultimate Charizard]

And just to 'lighten the mood' heres your typical on the street reaction to war. Asking your average Amercian who we should invade next. Not 'if' we should invade, 'who' we should invade.

http://ebaumsworld.com/2006/02/invade.html
i will link this one since theres nothing offensive on that page.

The suggestions were....
Iran (cos there may be a revolution or something soon)
Korea (cos their trouble)
Italy
India
Pakistan
Russia
China
France (cos they werent out allies)
Sri Lanka (the friend of the person suggesting this said "really? ive never heard of it)
Brazil (the same guy that picked out Russia and China..also said Canada but he sounded drunk anyway)
The Middle East in general
And one very eloquent gentleman that stated 'we'll make a big f##kin glass crater out of the middle east!"

And also just to point out, that the Couple that said France, the one that Said Korea and another that said Iran all pointed to Australia when asked to pick out their choice on the map.

[Roy Karrde]

I would think that I would act the same way, the insurgents have killed civilians, attacked and mamed soldiers everyday, and captured non military targets to auction off. Yet when we fight them we are supposed to show them dignity? How could we expect any soldier U.S., Chinese, Japanese, British, anyone. To expect to treat their opponent with dignity and humility when their opponent does not do the same? Now I am not saying that we should start capturing civilians and auctioning them off like the Insurgents do, or use their tactics. Yet War is a dirty buisness, and the Geniva Convention does not apply to these Insurgents, so they should not expect nor should we expect any soldier to treat them any different no matter if they are wounded or not. Especially when a Insurgent could be carrying a bomb or some explosive to make himself a mayter when the soldiers approach.

As for the song being played during battle, I know if I was out there with bullets flying over my head, I would want something to take the tension off or something to listen to during the hours upon hours of constant fighting. Yet that is just me, maybe you would rather hear the screams and constant gun shots around you.

Edit: As for your list I really would like to see some concrete percentage, I would think the first two would apply since they have or are in the process of having Nukes and have threatened to attack us or attack our allies. The rest probably ranges around the 1% and are just idiots talking their asses off, or people with a grudge against those countries.

[nightcrow]

You have absolutely no idea do you.
As someone who has volunteered for service but was turned down (medical reasons) its the people like you that bother me. You seem just as immoral as these idiots im picking out. Your basically saying as long as your not in danger then who cares what they do.
Trying to liken the attitude of a solider to childlike is plain moronic. Right, so a good portion of our kids are no more mature than 5 year olds...what shall we do, i know lets train them to be killing machines and arm them to the teeth.

Immorality has no place anywhere. They have a job to do and theres a way to do it properly without becoming immature murderers.

I know what I am talking about, you are the one who doesn't. My father was enlisted and I lived near the biggest military base in Europe and visited the hospital there every once in a while with school. Don't tell me I don't know. You have no right to say they act "immoral" when these people are losing appendages, becoming metally disabled, and losing their lives in a much bigger quantity than you probably realise. Like I said, seeing these things lets me turn a blind eye to random acts of immaturity that might be displayed by the soldiers, which is actually a lot rarer than is portrayed. People will do anything to make americans look bad remember?

[Ultimate Charizard]

Right ok, look at this way. The 'Insurgents' as you keep putting it see this action on the TV. Of an American soldier taking potshots at a Defenceless Iraqi then cheering and celebrating the kill.
What do you think that does to the Iraqi. It doesnt make them want to be nice to Americans thats for sure. The 'Enemy' arent the only ones capable of evil. Just cos you say theyre good doesnt always mean that they are.

Saying 'well they did it first' doesnt count either. Its a case of 'Were right and your wrong because we say so!

[Roy Karrde]

Most of the Insurgents dont need a reason like this to attack a american soldier. The ones that were attacking us back in 03 and 04 needed one, and this would have most likely spawned off more hatred and uprising back then. Yet that was two to three years ago, and those insurgents now want to come to the table and be a part of this country's future. That is why in the last few months you have heard news stories about the new Iraqi Government talking about how they are negotiating and talking with the Insurgents. The time where stories like these would have caused a uprising from the insurgents is over. The insurgents that are left now, and most likely the man featured on the video are the ones that are coming in from over the borders, the ones like Al Qaeda and Iran who will benifit from seeing a Religous Theocracy in Iraq. The Insurgents that were fighting us are mostly fighting them right now as they try to keep them from pouring into their country. There are alot of clashes happening on the borders where the two factions are fighting eachother, you just barely hear about it.

As for the Iraqi people hating us, remember that news now days is Infotainment, Death and Destruction sells, dead bodies of Iraqi's sells. What doesn't sell is stories about Schools being built, fresh water being sent to Villages, Entire Villages that were in the process of being starved out by Saddam are now being replinished and thriving. People over there are able to actually have freedom and not state run Television or being able to have to be hushed in what they say. The protests against American troops and against a certain elected representative that you see over there from time to time, how many times do you think you would have seen it during Saddam's rule? How many times were any of those people able to protest against the killing squads? The rapes? The Children being forced into Military Service? My point being is most people over there are enjoying freedom that they never dreamed of, but you never hear any of that on Television becuase selling News against the Iraq war drives in Ratings.

By God I am glad we didn't have this technology during World War 2, if we did how long do you think America would have stayed in a battle against Japan or Europe? People would be complaining that videos of American troops beating or slaying Nazi soldiers would only make the Enemy hate us more, or that the war against Japan was useless becuase we were losing in the Pacific.

[mr_pikachu]

And i dont want to start a political debate but most of the support for these guys seems to be coming from the US posters while the non Americans seem to be getting my point....can i just ask would you have been so defensive if it wasnt 'your boys' i was questioning?

Just to clarify, I live in America, and I think the group of soldiers that have been referenced are absolute morons. I support the military as a whole; the vast majority of the men and women who put their lives on the line are doing it to protect their country, not to find some perverse thrill. However, people who treat such a serious situation as an entertaining game do little more than stain the reputation and the efforts of those who would undertake such difficult tasks in a more appropriate manner.

Don't get me wrong; obviously, the intense conflict of war is something you can't ever really understand unless you've been in it yourself. I'm not going to say I understand the things that soldiers in heated combat must go through, because I haven't been through them myself. However, while unusual coping mechanisms for the trauma are understandable for such unusual circumstances, I think that celebrating a kill and seeking out more people to blow away (apparently for sport, rather than as part of a mission) goes a bit too far. Still, that's just the opinion of someone who's never been in a life-or-death situation, so take it as you will.

[Leon-IH]

What I'd Like? no.
What I'd Expect? yes.

[Dark-San]

[b][size=3] I'm not so sure of the whole Iraq war concept. However I will explain a misconception that people would think that being in the military is equivalent to a hero. Actually by being in the military, it is more of a job commitment. The only difference is just the risk factor is that you may lose your life in the line of duty.

@Leon-IH~ If you have nothing to add onto this topic, kindly do not post this unnecessary reply.

[Dark Dragonite]

Before people get all flamey about my take on this, think about it:

There are some bad soldiers, who enjoy the kill, raping women, scaring children, so they aren't all innocent, BUT, there are innocents who just needed help with college who are dying not for their country, but for Bush.
Bush, and his rich buddies get money off the gas price spike, he has a lot ov vested interest in oil, and refineries, and his buddies with the steel industry building all the guns, tanks, planes, etc...
Meanwhile, children are dying, how many leaders of the USA have children in the military, I believe 1....when asked if they would let their children go, the answer was a resounding no...

If the people of Iraq are resorting to women and children killing themselves to try and get the invaders out(yes, we are the invading country, no better than Germany, or England in the imperialistic days), they obviously don't want us there, they live different lives, are not Christian, and don't want us pushing this garbage on them, they aren't stupid.

All the money spent, and lives lost, could have rebuilt a country, like ours, or theirs, hell, I'm sure their leader could have been bought off, money talks, bs walks...

[Roy Karrde]

Meanwhile, children are dying, how many leaders of the USA have children in the military, I believe 1....when asked if they would let their children go, the answer was a resounding no...

That is why we have a All Volunteer Military, most parents would never want their child to go off to the military becuase it is placing their child in harm's way. That's why a child cannot volunteer to the military until they are considered a Adult and are able to make decisions on their own. It doesn't matter if 1 representative has a child in the military or all of them do. In the end it is a child's decision. That being said I'm not going to respond to the War for Oil BS and other stuff, it's not worth my time.

[Blademaster]

Um, why are we even talking about this? Who here can attest that shooting an unarmed man and then laughing about it is either good or a good quality for any military force? Why is our military even IN Iraq? Iraq has no terrorists, oil, or Bibles - WTF is Bush looking for there? Are we helping these people or what?

[Dark Dragonite]

Roy, most of these "volunteers" don't figure they will die for a cause they don't believe in...this country doesn't want to be at war, and looked down upon like we are. "Volunteer" to most of our army, was supossed to mean training, maybe seeing a little action if there was a worthy cause, then getting help with college, and a career. Yes, I'm sure most of them realize they could die, but I'm sure they thought it would be more of a heroic, defending their country, not invading someone else's...

Oh, and the whole government not having their children in the military was to show what even they feel about it, who knows, maybe a few have kids that want to serve, but their parents don't want them to, they know what kind of a cause, and fight it is.

For those who volunteer, it's their only chance at a better life, instead, it's the end of their lives...that doesn't sit well with me.

[Roy Karrde]

Oh Please, they know what they are doing when they sign up. Unless they are all incredibly stupid, they know there is the possibility of being placed in harm's way which is why they go through boot camp and other training programs, which are ment to prepare you for active combat. The ones that do not see combat are sent into different programs that train you for that position such as if you were going into IT or Computer work. As for not believeing in the the cause, do you know each and everyone of these soldiers? Most of them in Iraq seem to believe in the cause, most reinlist when they get back home to go back and serve again. They believe in this cause and they believe what they are doing for their country is right.

As for the dieing aspect, may I remind you that this war has had the lowest, casulty rate of any major war that we have ever been in. Yes there are ones dieing for their country over there, but that number is much lower than any other war. Most of them right now are helping train the police, work with the civilians in rebuilding, and hunting down the insurgants/terrorsts with the Iraqi army. Of course you don't hear much about that becuase good things do not sell, that's why the Iraqi war has been out of the news lately, the casualty count is near zip right now, so instead of focusing on the stablizing Government, and the Iraqi children who can now go to school instead of being a part of Saddam's army, they would rather focus on the Border issue becuase it's the next big topic, and it will drive home the ratings, that good news out of Iraq wouldn't.

[Dark Dragonite]

Is this a "major war"?
How do you categorize it as one?
This is the President's vendetta, finishing his daddy's war, were we threatened by Iraq? No
Was there a threat of terrorists in Iraq? not likely...the only reason the terrorists want to kill us, is because we are being imperialistic...why the hell are we in the middle east? Are we bringing peace with guns, and bombs?

The only "major war"s were World War I and World War II, it was stopping Germany from just taking over other countries, and killing innocent people(not just the Jews), can you really put this "war" in the same category? Or are we the invading force, trying to change Iraq to how we want it?

[Roy Karrde]

Major war being any major offensive that has involved combat in the last 50 years, including the Korean War and the Vietnam War. The first Gulf War was basically nothing in which we rolled over the area with almost no combat. We're we threatened by Iraq before this war? The constant attacks at our no fly zone in Iraq, the constant cat and mouse game Saddam played with Weapon Inspectors were more than enough to Attack Iraq. Yet Clinton only had the balls to do it when he was being Investigated by the Congress. BTW how do you explain Clinton's airstrikes in 98? Were those just him wanting to be Bi Partisian or did he actually feel like Saddam's constant cat and mouse game with Weapon Inspectors were being harmful?

As for connections to terrorism, during the Clinton years Iraq was routinely listed as the world's largest funders of terrorism. Paying the familys of Suicide bombers at first $25,000 to attack Isreal, and then upped it to $50,000. Saddam also funded the Allied Democratic Forces a Ugandan Terrorst Organization with links to Bin Laden. If you want anything concrete, how about Bin Laden's fighters attending training camps in Iraq to learn document forging and bomb making skills? Along with Iraqi intelligence agents meeting with Bin Laden in Sudan, Turkey, Afghanistan, and Prague. Along with Bin Laden meeting with Iraqi's Special Security Organization. Yet lets forget all of that, it's eaiser to say that there was not a threat of terrorists in Iraq and that we had no reason to attack them.

[Ultimate Charizard]

Before i start this post i want to make it clear. I will be referencing 9/11 and am in no way belittling the event, or making it sound less monstrous, simply that it will get a point across.

To be honest Roy, before 9/11 the average American thought of Cuba or South America if you mentioned the word terrorist and had no interest, or barely even knowledge of the middle east. The events of 9/11 changed that and gave the world a whole new target.
The Gulf war was an act of invasion on Iraq's part and the UN intervened. This is an act of invasion on our part, but when your the biggest bully in the playground, who's going to intervene.
Its like this whole argument that Iran should be invaded because theyre dabbling with nuclear tech. So what. Who says that the 'good guys' such as the USA and the UK are able to be trusted with the big guns?

And before you start giving figures about who supported who, can you find the figures of the cash raised and Paid to the IRA from the USA, including any given by celebrities and Charity Fundraisers. The same money that was used to Fund the terrorist Bombings over here. By your logic that means the USA is a home for terrorism and deserves to be attacked.

[Dark Dragonite]

I aggree UC, plus, if you've heard anything about the leader in Iran, he says anything we do against him, will hit Israel, yes, an open, bold threat...and he didn't say the world, just the US, he knows what type of president fixed his winning of 2 elections

[Roy Karrde]

I would think before 9/11 people would assosiate terrorism with the Oklahoma City bombings, and the bombings of the two African Embassys by Al Qaeda since both were huge news events, but then again I could be wrong. As for the invasion, so what if we are the invaders. We didn't go in there for territory, or for a resource, we went in there for a regime change and to scare the fuck out of everyone else in the Mid East * Look at Syria and them giving up Nukes *. We got attacked on 9/11 and we finally had a President that was willing to step up and do something about it, instead of the complete cat and mouse games Clinton played with Bin Laden and Saddam for 8 years.

As for Iran, there are safeguards we place on our nukes to make sure that they do not get shot off, the same goes with the Nukes in France, Britain, and other First World Countries that carry Nukes. Can you tell me that the President of Iran, who has openly said that he wants to bring about the end of the World to complete his nutty religion, will place those same safeguards? Can you tell me that the President of Iran who has said that Isreal should be wiped off the face of the Planet should have nukes? There are some countrys that can have nucular weapons and power becuase they know the responcability of having them. And there are some countries that should not have nucular weapons and power. Iran is one of them.

Also DD you gotta be one of the biggest conspiracy therorists around. Yeah Bush fixed two elections. That gave me the biggest laugh of the night. Considering how many lawyers were involved in both, and how blood hungry CNN and CBS were to report anything negative about Bush, there would be a better chance of Gore and Kerry trying to fix the elections.

[Dark Dragonite]

Ok, first election: He won by Florida, the state his brother runs, and I will admit, decently...anyway, he won due to confusing ballots, supossedly...hanging chads weren't counted, etc...
Second election: HJe won by Ohio, with their new electronic ballots, where I know people who voted Kerry, and the screen said thank you for voting for George W. Bush...the guy who invented the system said on TV: "I will do whatever I can to help Bush win"

We haven't gotten anything out of the invasion?

Higher gas prices...prove Bush has no money in the oil industry...
Rebuilding contracts with his personal buddies...

You can throw the title "conspiracy theorist" all you want Roy, since you like turning a blind eye, We finally have a president who allowed the terrorists to successfully attack us to start the friggan war...

Answer this: Do you honestly think the country would have allowed Bush to go into Iraq with no 9/11?
Have you ever heard the man speak? he's an idiot...

"People don't need to worry about security. This deal wouldn't go forward if we were concerned about the security for the United States of America." —George W. Bush, on the deal to hand over U.S. port security to a company operated by the United Arab Emirates, Washington, D.C., Feb. 23, 2006

"And I want those who are questioning it to step up and explain why all of a sudden a Middle Eastern company is held to a different standard than a Great British company." —George W. Bush, defending a plan to allow a company controlled by the United Arab Emirates to manage ports in the United States, aboard Air Force One, Feb. 21, 2006

Aren't those Arab people the same who hate us, and he called terrorists, and part of the axis of evil?

The man has the lowest presidential rating ever at 29% and falling...

[Roy Karrde]

First let me ask you what having his brother run the state has anything with the first election? It was Gore who was recounting the 2000 ballots, but only in the Democrat Counties, apparently he didn't want to recount the ballots in the Republican Counties becuase they weren't important.

In the 2004 Election thousands of Lawyers were ready for any possible recount, yet Kerry wisely decided not to do Gore's hissy fit. And if there was a recount then Bush could have asked for a recount of several of the states that Kerry barely won in, I believe New England was one in which only 1,000 votes seperated the winner. Basically what I am getting at there were 3 states where the difference was smaller than the one in Ohio that Bush could have asked to recount, and if he had won all three of those states then Ohio would not have mattered.

Now for the Invasion part, we have gotten higher gas prices, but we barely got any oil from Iraq before the invasion. Most of our oil came from Canada and Venezula *sp *. If Bush was really in this for Oil then he would have gone after those two countries since that is where our real oil comes from. France and other European countries have more of a stake in Iraq's Oil.

For the Contracts. Check out Halluburton, they are the only company capable of rebuilding Iraq, they have been the only company for years that are capable for rebuilding. They were used during the Clinton Administration and even before that for Rebuilding Efforts. Yet we are supposed to give the contracts of rebuilding a country, to less able, and less powerful companies so they can do a Half Assed Job, just becuase it has your panties in a twist that Cheney used to work for them? I would think and hope that most of the elected representatives in Washington and everyone else, would care more about getting the job done right with the most able body worker, than to care about silly partican politics.

Also would the country want to go to war in Iraq before 9/11? I dont know, the country didn't seem to have much of a problem with bombing the living shit out of Iraq in 98 when Saddam was playing mind games with the UN. I think they would probably have supported it, if Bush did the same thing as he did and step up and said "I'm not Clinton, I have had enough"

Also for the Terrorists to attack, let me remind you that the first WTC was attacked by Terrorists in 1993, and Clinton did nothing. We also had our Embassies bombed and Americans killed and Clinton did nothing. We had Intel that told us that Bin Laden wanted to take down a major U.S. Landmark and Clinton let Bin Laden go when he had the chance to capture him. So which President let a Terrorist attack happen again?

As for the Arab people, it is quite racist of you to group them all in as terrorists. The UAE has helped us alot in stopping Terrorism, and the Port deal wouldn't have really mattered anyway since the U.S. has always controlled security at our ports. Also I can never remember the UAE being a part of the Axes of Evil, I always thought it was Iran, Iraq, and North Korea.

Also his approval rating is around 30 to 34% but President approval ratings always flucturate.