Booooooring

[Zak Rodgers]

I swear the only items I ever see in PvP are choice items, weakness policy, life orb, asault vest, eviolite and leftovers. No one has any imagination anymore. I mean, no one tries anything else out. There are literally hundreds of possible item choices and all anyone can think of is slapping an apple core on everything. It irritates me.

[Austrian ViceMaster Alex]

I think that has less to do with Imagination but more the fact that those items are simply the most effective ones. Especially when you try to play competitively there's no way around them.

[Zak Rodgers]

But nobody tries ANYTHING different. At. All. It's like people think the ONLY way to use a particular Pokemon is to give it one of these items; and if you use something different you get called a noob. For example, I gave my old Greninja a metronome instead of whatever the hell you're "meant" to give it, and everyone was like "haha, you suck cause you didn't give it blah blah blah." Yeah. Took out half a guy's team using it because of the metronome boost spamming Ice Beam gave me.

What I'm trying to say is there are more ways to use your Pokemon other than just slapping one of these generic items on it.

[shadownite90]

tropius with harvest and rest and a chesto berry. I use that. it works well as a tank. and ya, I completely understand this one set of items. I almost constantly use the type boosting items like black belt or silk scarf

[Zak Rodgers]

Nice! I have an Adamant Infernape with Iron Fist. It knows Mach Punch and holds a Black Belt. All of these factors together make Mach Punch, usually known to be just a weak priority move, hideously owerpowered - enough to OHKO if its super effective and 2HKO if its neutral. See any choice items/leftovers/life orb here?

And that, my friends, is the power of imagination.

[Magmar]

I would probably never use it in competitive battling, but I'm finding that Dustox with Toxic + Quiver Dance + Venoshock + holding the Metronome is quite deadly in the game itself.

Just play with your favorites. Who cares what anyone else thinks?

[Zak Rodgers]

It's not really caring about others' opinions. I just don't like how no-one has the courage to try something a little out the box.

[Blademaster]

It's not about creativity or imagination. It's about reliability. Those stick-up-their-ass Smogon battlers use the same moves and items 90% of the time because they WORK 90% of the time.

If you want to cook something, you could go out to your yard and build a fire, or you can toss your pot into a stream of lava, or you can just leave it in the Sun for a long time. But you're probably just going to use an oven/stove. Is it because you're uncreative? No, it's because having the right tool for a given job makes the job a lot easier.

[Zak Rodgers]

My gripe is that they don't look for anything else that may be even more useful/reliable than what they've already got. They don't explore other possibilities because they're too scared to deviate from something that they know does the job. But who knows? Maybe there's some insanely useful item out there that nobody's tried using because they're too afraid.

For instance, almost all Cloyster users think the ONLY item to give it is a Focus Sash. People who don't give their Cloyster oneof these gets accused of "not knowing how to play the game properly". MY Cloyster has a White Herb, so it can Shell Smash without the debuff. Dunno if it can learn recycle, but if it can, even better.

My point is that people are so afraid to deviate from their "perfect items" that they completely miss other useful options, which is what annoys me.

[Blademaster]

It's not a matter of being afraid to look for better options, either. It's about being disheartened and pissed off that those alternate options never work, so you say "Fuck this." and make a Sandstorm team or whatever the new meta is.

I play shitloads of video games. Most of the modern ones have some degree of creative flexibility in them. Different movesets and items in Pokemon. Different loadouts in Team Fortress 2. Nearly infinite different ways to build robots in Robocraft, or spaceships in Kerbal Space Program. And what I've found is that Sturgeon's Revelation (AKA, "90% of everything is crap.") is just as prevalent in video games as it is everywhere else. Your combination and methods may seem new and quirky and fun on paper... Then you take it out to the field and it gets violently sodomized in almost every situation.

Besides, I don't mean to sound rude, but your feats ITT aren't exactly original or groundbreaking. Infernape and especially Greninja are two of the strongest and most-used Pokemon in the games. Furthermore, Mach Punch Iron Fist Infernape is already one of its most popular incarnations. And with much stronger items, no less: Your +10% Black Belt bonus has only WEAKENED it compared to +30% Life Orb and +50% Choice Band. Hell, even Muscle Band is a better choice than Black Belt: At least that gives a (slight) power increase to ALL of the physical moves your Infernape will no doubt be using as opposed to just the Fighting-type ones.

Lastly, you're only mentioning sole instances of your success (again, with very strong Pokemon: I'd be more impressed if, for instance, you Iron Fist-fucked multiple enemies with Hitmonchan instead of Infernape, or you super-Ice Beamed half of your opponent's team to death with Omastar or Sharknado). What sort of win-loss ratio do you have? And with what kind of team? Competitive Serious Shit Pokemon isn't like the anime, or even the in-game games. You need a team that all six of your Pokemon fit into well. I'm assuming that Greninja and Infernape are your sweepers. Who is supporting them and how? How well does the team as a whole work? You need to consider all of that before you can say that you have a creative, new, winning strategy.

[Zak Rodgers]

It's not a matter of being afraid to look for better options, either. It's about being disheartened and pissed off that those alternate options never work, so you say "Fuck this." and make a Sandstorm team or whatever the new meta is.

I play shitloads of video games. Most of the modern ones have some degree of creative flexibility in them. Different movesets and items in Pokemon. Different loadouts in Team Fortress 2. Nearly infinite different ways to build robots in Robocraft, or spaceships in Kerbal Space Program. And what I've found is that Sturgeon's Revelation (AKA, "90% of everything is crap.") is just as prevalent in video games as it is everywhere else. Your combination and methods may seem new and quirky and fun on paper... Then you take it out to the field and it gets violently sodomized in almost every situation.

Besides, I don't mean to sound rude, but your feats ITT aren't exactly original or groundbreaking. Infernape and especially Greninja are two of the strongest and most-used Pokemon in the games. Furthermore, Mach Punch Iron Fist Infernape is already one of its most popular incarnations. And with much stronger items, no less: Your +10% Black Belt bonus has only WEAKENED it compared to +30% Life Orb and +50% Choice Band. Hell, even Muscle Band is a better choice than Black Belt: At least that gives a (slight) power increase to ALL of the physical moves your Infernape will no doubt be using as opposed to just the Fighting-type ones.

Lastly, you're only mentioning sole instances of your success (again, with very strong Pokemon: I'd be more impressed if, for instance, you Iron Fist-fucked multiple enemies with Hitmonchan instead of Infernape, or you super-Ice Beamed half of your opponent's team to death with Omastar or Sharknado). What sort of win-loss ratio do you have? And with what kind of team? Competitive Serious Shit Pokemon isn't like the anime, or even the in-game games. You need a team that all six of your Pokemon fit into well. I'm assuming that Greninja and Infernape are your sweepers. Who is supporting them and how? How well does the team as a whole work? You need to consider all of that before you can say that you have a creative, new, winning strategy.

I don't use Infernape or Greninja anymore and I never meant the Pokemon themselves; I meant the combination of items and abilities used in conjunction with them. I never claimed my Infernape strategy to be original and Black Belt is a 30% boost as of XY, not 10%.

For your information, most of the innovative, out-the-box strategies I come up with are quite often successful - In XY I had 164 wins to 56 losses. And although I hate referring to Smogon as I usually pay it no heed, EVERY Pokemon I use presently is in the NU tier.
At the moment I'm using a Mono-Ice team of Mega Abomasnow, Avalugg, Aurorus, Weavile, Cloyster and Regice. I haven't had a chance to try it out yet but it's based around retaliation and speed altering tactics - I can either boost my own speed or nerf my opponents' in order to make tanky sweepers out of my entire team. If that doesn't work I have Avalanches spread among my physical Pokemon, namely Avalugg, for hard-hitting retaliation - Avalugg doesn't NEED to be fast, as it can take physical hits forever and can survive three neutral special hits.

My old team was Drapion, Infernape, Greninja, Togekiss, Espeon and Mega Gengar. Again, I used uncommon tactics or those seen as "noobish" or "unreliable" and they, 9 times out of 10, turned out fine. For instance, sending out Togekiss to soak up hits as it set up a maximum nasty plot stack, then baton passing them to Espeon. Espeon would then take advantage of the massive sp.atk boost in conjuction with Stored Power - using this resulted in single-handedly sweeping a powerhouse team with no return damage quite often.
Gengar was there as a stallbreaker - It could taunt to prevent status while preventing escape with Shadow Tag. I can't tell you how many times my opponent was forced to use struggle. M-Gengar is rarely used in this way - it's usually a special sweeper. Another successful, innovative strategy from me.
Drapion was my main Pokemon - it was fast, tanked most hits and spread confuse ray like wildfire. While the opponent was confused, I would get a swords dance stack, then spam Knock Off/Cross Poison. Swords dance made them massively powerful, and the Sniper/Scope Lens (another never used, underrated item) combo had Drapion destroying entire teams.
Greninja and Infernape were used as you would expect, but I only used them for coverage and utility. They were fast, and an Iron Fist/Black Belt combo had Infernape destroying things with a mere Mach Punch. Greninja's metronome had it continuously buffing up its Ice Beam (Protean-boosted) until it could 2HKO even resistant foes.

So there you go. There's a few examples of me proving that underused, underrated items and tactics can be even more effective than the lazy, generic stuff most people come up with. Battling like this was born out of me being a nonconformist (hate to follow the crowd) and I think I've done pretty well for myself.

[Blademaster]

Okay before this goes any further, let me clarify something.

In XY I had 164 wins to 56 losses.

Is this against competitive tightass players, or just random peons playing Pokemon XY online? Because I think we're having some miscommunication here: In any competitive game, your AVERAGE player is very, very different from your UPPER-LEVEL player. A gimmicky team might work surprisingly well against the former, but not against the latter.

[Zak Rodgers]

Also, M-Gengar had Destiny Bond, which when used with shadow tag and taunt, forced the opponent to KO Gengar and subsequently get KO'd itself. This was in case Gengar couldn't match an opponent and the only option was kamikaze

[Zak Rodgers]

Gimmicky? I literally spent 20 mins explaining why my team is NOT like the gimmicky ones you usually get.

And how the hell would I know whether my opponents are serious or not? Are you insinuating that a team like mine, which you've never experienced, is only good against the random players milling about?

[Blademaster]

I do believe that a competitive monotype Ice team is gimmicky, yes. Protip: 'Gimmicky' is a descriptor, not an insult.

As for your other team, it's significantly less gimmicky. However, it's still a little gimmicky just by definition because it's 'nonconformist,' as you put it.

Except it isn't really that nonconformist, either.

For instance, sending out Togekiss to soak up hits as it set up a maximum nasty plot stack, then baton passing

Literally the first Togekiss strategy on Smogon.

Gengar was there as a stallbreaker - It could taunt to prevent status while preventing escape with Shadow Tag. I can't tell you how many times my opponent was forced to use struggle. M-Gengar is rarely used in this way - it's usually a special sweeper. Another successful, innovative strategy from me.

Also, M-Gengar had Destiny Bond, which when used with shadow tag and taunt, forced the opponent to KO Gengar and subsequently get KO'd itself. This was in case Gengar couldn't match an opponent and the only option was kamikaze

Literally the first Mega Gengar strategy on Smogon.

Iron Fist/Black Belt combo had Infernape destroying things with a mere Mach Punch.

Again, Iron Fist Infernape with Mach Punch is incredibly common...

Greninja's metronome had it continuously buffing up its Ice Beam (Protean-boosted) until it could 2HKO even resistant foes.

...as is Protean Greninja with Ice Beam.


I will admit that that Baton Passed Espeon combo and your Sniper/Scope Lens Drapion are more original (even though Swords Dance Drapion is itself a very popular choice for that Pokemon, and your claim that Scope Lens is never used is not exactly true either: Hell, Kingdra runs that exact combo - beautifully, might I add), but the Espeon especially just kind of reaffirms my suspicion that most of your success comes from whaling on commoners. I mean, Espeon is fucking FRAGILE. I could see it catching someone off-guard and doing some damage, but "single-handedly sweeping a powerhouse team with no return damage quite often?" Either you're exaggerating or your opponents weren't exactly the kind of people that you should be boasting about defeating.

In short:

I never meant the Pokemon themselves; I meant the combination of items and abilities used in conjunction with them.

The Pokemon is the base. There are almost no exceptions to this: High-tier Pokemon are so for many reasons, the foremost of which typically revolve around their stats and the moves available to them. With a few exceptions, the aspects you're adjusting are some of the least important ones. You're tweaking tiny parts of a relatively standard team and then disproportionately praising yourself for doing so.


Maybe your Ice team will prove me wrong; based on my own reservations as well as some of your claims thus far (e.g., Avalugg being able to take 3 special attacks when it has an absolutely pitiful Sp. Def.), I'm skeptical.

[Zak Rodgers]

Any strategies I share with bloody Smogon are unintentional - I don't use the site.
You're focussing too much on the Pokemon themselves - you can hardly call a metronome Greninja mainstream because no-one else uses the item. Same as a black belt Infernape.
I really didn't want to have anything in common with that bloody site.

FYI Espeon doesn't need to be bulky to sweep. It get a massively powerful Stored Power thanks to Togekiss's baton passes and outspeeds nearly everything. I can even prove it if you want - Just ask. FYI part 2, my Avalugg has a +sp.def nature and max sp.def investment; that's how it can take a few special hits.
See what happens when you generalize? Which is the problem. You're so focussed on what you think SHOULD happen that you don't even consider what I know DOES happen.

Don't assume I've ignored the Pokemon themselves - wouldn't be much of a competitor if I wasn't. Got that sorted, so don't assume that I've disregarded the Pokemon themselves. I'm just no discussing them here.

[Blademaster]

Using different items doesn't mean much when the overall strategy is identical. Your relatively-standard Infernape and Greninja both use attack-boosting items. It scarcely matters if your Infernape gets a 20% (not 30%) boost from Black Belt or a 30% boost from Life Orb or a 50% boost from Choice Band. You're still using literally the most generic strategy for a generic beatstick Pokemon and then hyping yourself up because you gimped it oh so slightly in the name of originality. Same with Avalugg: Further inspection of your favorite website tells me that an Avalugg with Avalanche and as many Sp. Def. boosts as possible is actually not only very common, it's also pretty much the only option Avalugg has going for it due to its weird stat distribution and comparatively small movepool. Whether or not you intended to copy Smogon is irrelevant: You are still using the exact same strategies irregardless because, as I said in my first post ITT, said strategies work.

As an aside, I never said a Pokemon has to be bulky to sweep. I just find it very unlikely that, in all the times you've apparently roflstomped with your Stored Power Espeon, not a single of your opponents has had something as simple and common as a Dark Pokemon. Or a tanky Pokemon. Or a Pokemon with a useful high-priority move like Protect or Sucker Punch. Or a Pokemon capable of inflicting a status condition that can bypass Espeon's Abilities. Or just an extant Light Screen.

[Zak Rodgers]

Now you're just being a right pillock. Haven't I already stated I'm not hyping myself and merely expressing pride?

My Espeon has a focus sash - which means unless the opponent has more than one pokemon with a priority move, Espeon is nigh unstoppable. And even with light screen, how many pokemon do you think can withstand a +6, 140 base power attack? I could boost it even higher with Togekiss's calm mind too - but it's costly. Togekiss can't sponge forever.

I never claimed you said I need a bulky pokemon to sweep. You just dismissed Espeon as a sweeper because it's "too frail". Don't knock it till you try it, bud.

That aside, what you're doing now is finding every possible reason my team isn't original. I don't care if some things are common to Smogon - whatever's unique to me alone, however small, is what I'm proud of.

So unless you have more pointless arguments to irritate me with, I suggest you back off.

[Blademaster]

Now you're just being a right pillock.

And you are (and have been) being an arrogant dickbag because God forbid someone in this forum doesn't kowtow to you and your special snowflake complex or the soapbox it comes perched on.

See, I can be insulting, too. And I'm probably better at it than you are.

My Espeon has a focus sash

That's a very original item, especially for Espeon.

I never claimed you said I need a bulky pokemon to sweep. You just dismissed Espeon as a sweeper because it's "too frail". Don't knock it till you try it, bud.

I never said you said I said you said... yeah, can we cut this shit out now? Espeon has low HP and low defenses. Therefore, it's frail. Most sweepers are frail because they have high attack power and speed which means they have low defenses. Your anecdotal evidence doesn't change what words mean, bud.

That aside, what you're doing now is finding every possible reason my team isn't original. I don't care if some things are common to Smogon - whatever's unique to me alone, however small, is what I'm proud of.

You made this thread specifically to complain about unoriginality in online Pokemon. Why am I not allowed to do the same? Had you just let me make my observations, I'd have shut up and fucked off pretty quickly. But you kept getting more and more defensive over my responses until you outright called me an idiot up there. So now I don't really give a shit about your pride.

[Drago]

Is this why we have no new members?

EDIT: Or old ones?

[Zak Rodgers]

You apparently have no idea what real arrogance is - finding every possible fault in something you don't totally agree in. You're guilty there. Plus you seem completely unable to even consider anything I've said. If you don't like it, fine - just don't make it my problem.

If you're gonna turn this into a pissing contest I suggest you fuck off.

[Blademaster]

finding every possible fault in something you don't totally agree in.

I do that a lot. I'm very nitpicky. You didn't have to take it so personally.

I will admit that I moved the goalposts in my argument once or twice, and I apologize for that. That said, I tried to be reasonable with my gripes, which ultimately boiled down to "You're not as different as the people you criticize." and "The reason everybody does x is because x is demonstrably a good idea."

[Zak Rodgers]

Fine, I'll stop now but I'll leave you with this:
Get out there and find more good ideas. New ones.

[Oslo]

Zak, if you like creative battling, you should join our Anime Style Battling league. No Life Orbs or Leftovers. Just fun.

[/plug]

[Zak Rodgers]

Hmmmmm. Psychedelic!

[Austrian ViceMaster Alex]

Let's all get along now, okay?

[Zak Rodgers]

OK

[Drago]

Nah

[Master Rudy]

Hmmm.....surprised no one has proposed Zak/Blade have a match in X/Y/OR/AS to settle this.....

*goes back to lurking in the shadows*

[Zak Rodgers]

What would that accomplish other than Blade is a better battler than me?

I'm not super dedicated.

[Blademaster]

Blade is a better battler than me

This motherfucker is funny.

Seriously though, I haven't even touched competitive Pokermain in years. It was too disillusioning. And when I did do it, it was via some online program and not the actual games, because fuck all the effort you need to perfect EV's, IV's, Natures, hereditary moves, and all that bullshit. Even if I did put the time and effort in, it would have been for nothing: My favorite Pokemon don't work well together at all, and putting some gimmicky fucking competitive team together got me clobbered the first several times because I had no clue how to battle people. It's nothing like the anime or even the games VS. the CPU. It's like a fucked-up chess game where you can only see one white piece and one black piece at a time.

Let that be a lesson for you, Zak: Never enjoy things. It can never be fun or simple, and when it's done entirely online, you don't even have the satisfaction of slugging that smug and in all likelihood unwashed dickface tryhard you're playing against for being a killjoy.

[Zak Rodgers]

Wait, you spend an ungodly amount of time giving insight into everything competitive, only to tell me you don't really play PvP much anymore? In that case your whole argument's been way out of loop. I assumed you were a competent battler based on all the knowledge you offered.

And, whether in online games or life in general, my policy is: Always assume the worst of people; that way you're not disappointed when they turn out to be fucktards and pleasantly surprised when they actually turn out to be good people. Win/win.

[Zak Rodgers]

This motherfucker is funny.

Please don't patronize me. That's low.

[Blademaster]

Wait, you spend an ungodly amount of time giving insight into everything competitive, only to tell me you don't really play PvP much anymore?

No, I spent an ungodly amount of time giving insight into everything competitive, only to tell you I don't play PvP at all anymore.

In that case your whole argument's been way out of loop.

And yet everything I said was still accurate. I even provided links and everything.

Please don't patronize me.

I was trying to be nice. Don't make me regret it.

[Zak Rodgers]

And yet everything I said was still accurate.

How can you be sure if you don't play PvP anymore? For all you know it's all obsolete by now, or there are better ways. Now who's bigging themselves up?

I was trying to be nice. Don't make me regret it.

If that's nice, I'd hate to see nasty. Oh wait, I already have. Regret it now?

[Austrian ViceMaster Alex]

Competitive gaming is a real bother in my opinion. A friend wanted me to try an online program but I haven't spent weeks and months EV/IV and god knows what training my critters just to battle someone who never put effort into it but just enters so digits in a system.

The most fun I had when playing online was using an all Fire type team. I lost way more often than I won but it was satisfying just getting close to victories or being a challenging opponent regardless.

[Zak Rodgers]

Competitive gaming is a real bother in my opinion. A friend wanted me to try an online program but I haven't spent weeks and months EV/IV and god knows what training my critters just to battle someone who never put effort into it but just enters so digits in a system.

The most fun I had when playing online was using an all Fire type team. I lost way more often than I won but it was satisfying just getting close to victories or being a challenging opponent regardless.

I just find the whole competitive community way too uptight and obsessive/compulsive. I mean, these are the people who put hours into the game every day and fret over every little detail. Not gonna stop me playing online, but I wish these "pros" would just chill.

[Link]

Competitive battles are fun. I battle between my files to test them out.

[Zak Rodgers]

This is what I hate about competitive players. They too easily dismiss anything they ASSUME won't work. I'll be the first to say that logic and assumption are nothing compared to experience. For example, a Pokèmon I had a while back used a very unique moveset. Everybody else, assumed my strategy wouldn't work and called it and me garbage. They thought I was a noob because I hadn't taught it X move or given it X nature, which were more widely accepted. I however knew for a fact that the tactics were sound - I had spent hours testing, perfecting and battling with them, and they contributed greatly to my PvP win count.
My point is that way too many PvP'ers dismiss new things too easily, without even trying them. If they could drag themselves away from the safety of Smogon for five minutes, they could find some unique but effective strategies of their own.

Moral: DON'T KNOCK IT TILL YOU TRY IT.

[Drago]

This thread was the fucking bomb