Voting Topic. It's time for a blatant abuse to end.

[Little_Pikachu]

We've had old Gym Leader TMs floating around the ASB for a long, long time. Since the time in which many of them were written, we've seen a measure of common sense and game balance slowly work it's way back into the league, something that we had not seen since before Tune-Ups were ever allowed.

In the past we've had voting topics to eliminate old Gym Leader TMs, which remain the last obvious abuse from ages past. Every time up to now, however, veterans who wished to continue abusing the old TMs to keep an unfair advantage over newbies without actually having to resort to skill would pop out of the woodwork to vote against it. Sometimes, they'd even con those newbies they were exploiting into voting with them, pretending that they had "earned" those TMs (or as often as not just offering bribes), when in fact they had just used the businesses they owned, under the extremely broken old economic system, to make their pokémon invincible. Back then, you could pay to have your pokémon learn Spore, Lock On, and Guillotine, even if this made no sense. Even if the pokémon in question was a Magikarp! And furthermore, it would be a ghost/dark 700-foot-long Magikarp with seven attacks per round and immunity to all status effects. So there's really no truth to what is said about "earning" the TMs from the Tune-Up days.

Hopefully, the current members are willing to listen to reason, and in that pursuit I've found an instance of a grizzled old veteran using old GL TMs as a substitute for skill. Note that Vaporeon911 isn't even trying to hide the fact that he's totally screwing Don'tRunWithScizors over with unfair TMs:

Originally posted by Vaporeon911:

Heh, got one approved, time to cause hell. >=)

Go Shimmer!

*male Squirtle pops out*

You havn't had much exercise lately, eh?

Shimmer: Squirt, squirt, squirrrrrtle!

Right, this Unkown is no match for a powerful Squirtle like your self.

Shimmer: Squirt!

Heh, start with the oh so famous Mental Block. Yes Mental Block his sig move before he can try any funny buisness. Follow with a Rune of Protection *Psychic, don't let it get any weird psychic crap mess up your A game. Finish with a nice and easy Water Gun. Have fun buddy.

Shimmer: Squirt squirt.

~Mental Block *Unkown's Sig Move~Rune of Protection *Psychic~Water Gun~

-=-TM 69 – Rune of Protection-=-
The pokemon creates an aura around their body. This aura represents an element. The aura's element means it is protected by that element. Any attack that causes damage from that element will be absorbed into the aura. Any status effect/changer or that element will also be absorbed. This lasts for three rounds; in that time this attack cannot be cancelled and/or changed. At the end of the three rounds the aura discharges and comes together forming a missile. The missile is shot out at lightning speeds which explode in front of the opponent, causing it to miss it’s first attack the next round. This attack can be used when a pokemon is sleeping, burned, frozen, poisoned, scared, or paralyzed.
| Type: Psychic | | Damage: -- | Accuracy: 100% |

-=-TM 404 -Mental Block-=-
The pokemon uses his psychic powers to put up a block in the opponent's brain to make it not be able to use an attack (includes sig moves) for 5 rounds, and gives the abiliy to use the move to it. Cannot be blocked, and always attacks first. Maximum use is 5 times per battle, only 1 move may be blocked at a time.
| Type: Dark | Damage: -- | Accuracy: 100% |

In this line of text, Vaporeon911 stripped DRWS's entire moveset before any actual battling took place. Sure, DRWS made up some highly imaginative stuff to try to counter with, but quite frankly it would take precious little effort to point out the flaws in his counter. As much respect as I have for his battling skill, Vappy's Gym TMs have put him in a spot from which there's no recovery. Without Vappy having to resort to skill.

I mean, just look at those monstrosities. Can you imagine getting a sig like that approved? And don't think YOU will ever get one; the Gyms Leaders that handed them out are pretty much all retired, and they aren't Gym Leaders anymore anyway.

Anyway, I need two things. First off, I want everyone to vote yes or no to this proposition:

"Old Gym Leader TMs should be removed from the TPM ASB."

Second, could ASHarris sign onto this? Regardless of the results of the vote, I need her agreement before anything can actually change. I'm 100% sure I'll get it since the problem is so blasted obvious, but hey... Rules are rules.

If anyone has arguments either way, feel free to post them. Currently, this is a hideous problem, and I haven't even touched on points such as "We have no records from that far back since the old mods didn't pass them on to the new mods, so anyone could make up a so-called GL TM and claim they earned it" and the like.

As you might has guessed, I vote "yes".

Voting closes January 15, at 2359.59.

[The Mozz]

Yes.

[Icy]

Is this a black and white subject? Either they stay or go? How about they get weakened? We all know that Sniper's [I think] Mental Block is evil... but why not tone it down? After all, isn't Vap like the only one left with a TM at all?

oO

but if it's just a black and white subject.

No

[Voodoo]

No.

[100FangCroconaw]

I'd say Y E S.That spells yes.

[The_Missing_Link]

Originally posted by Voodoo
If Mental Block is Sniper404's TM, I'll say No. But if not Sniper404's creation, I'll say Yes. (I'm Sniper404's friend, though)

What does being a friend of Sniper have anything to do with his TM? We're talking about the abuse of TMs like his and how it's unfair to us in battle. I honestly think saying no because he's your friend is a crap answer


I'm saying yes. I haven't faced anyone with those TM's before, but I have seen what they've done so I want them out

[SNOTS FUBAR]

Yes, even though i own one from Vap911, they r a b1tch to battle against.

[Andrew]

I say that every 6 months they should be tweaked and reviewed to allow ongoing use and nostalgic purposes whilst keeping them working but toned down for today's ASB. But if that's "Too much" well then get rid of the buggers.

[M1ND G4ME]

I too, have never seen them in battle but the way i see it is if there illegally used, i vote them out because it jsut seems right. they souldnt be able to use something they got illegally

~GW7~

[celebipower]

Yes.

[The Dark Master]

I vote....

Yes

I guess this means kicking Bombmans TM from my Girafarig.

[Knight of Time]

Like most people here, yes.

I kinda find Mental Block and Rune of Protection to be a bit too dangerous.

Even though they might make someone's Pokemon who uses these TMs unbeatable in a battle (or nearly unbeatable), they ought to go, or at least be toned down a LOT (aka, for Mental Block, it should be unable to block sigs for an Unown, and any other Pokemon who have only one to three attacking moves (e.g. like a sigless Magikarp which would only have Tackle, Flail and possibly Reversal)).

[Clark]

what is this mess, i vote no.
i hope everyone is glad to see me return

[Vaporeon911]

Grade. A. Bull. ****.

No. =)

Once you spend years becoming a high ranking ASBer and earn your TMs you'll think otherwise people. ;)

I never got Tune Ups because I never used my money[all tens of thousands of it ;)] and they were extremely unfair, I agree. But TMs were an awesome reward for becoming a GL/Elite so don't screw me. ;p

[OnTheEdge]

Yes. Way too powerful have they become.

</yoda>

[Don't Run With Scizors]

But TMs were an awesome reward for becoming a GL/Elite so don't screw me. ;p

Yes, awesome indeed, in the "I'm-already-powerful-enough-to-be-an-Elite-so-I-need-more-power-to-keep-everybody-else-out-of-this-position"-type sense.

Obviously, my vote is yes.

However, I'll agree to let Vappy use his old Gym TMs, just for said battle and none other. Makes the win all that more satisfying.

[EngiMatikul]

Meneh, you guys's "old" TMs still seem quite new to me. :/

Well, I guess my vote is yes too; to me, they're just like overcheap sig moves. But I must tell you that this should not develop into a stereotype; not all old gym leaders' TMs are cheap as those used by Vap.

[RaZoR LeAf]

Yes. Rules on sig moves for regular people have changed, so why not on Gym leader TMs too.

[Indecent Exposure]

Originally posted by Vaporeon911
Grade. A. Bull. ****.

No. =)

Once you spend years becoming a high ranking ASBer and earn your TMs you'll think otherwise people.

Mental Block was always way too powerful...

I vote Yes on getting rid of 'em.

[Yumemiru]

Impereon has my full support. And, of course, I vote yes.

No, Vap, you're not the only one who has them. Though if you get your full team approved, you will probably have more copies than anyone else. But that's about it.

[Charizard04621]

Old TMs are the last hideous reminder of the old Dark Ages of ASB. Yes, I call them the Dark Ages. Why? Because then, there were only two classes of trainers. Those elitist ones who had good connections, and the ones who didn't.

Then there were Eevees of Ghost/Dark types or pokémon with so many tuneups and cheap TMs that made winning close to impossible... Matches came down to who had spent the most money on the best tuneups. And those poor souls who had nothing to spend? Well, too bad. They were swept away, whether they had any skill or not. How did anyone ascend in this ASB during the Dark Ages? Well, if a veteran liked you, he/she'd take you under his/her wing. ASB during the Dark Ages was basically a static society. Nope, no middle class whatsoever. You could either win(because of blatantly overpowered TMs, sigs, and tuneups) or you couldn't.

Now we get veteran elitists coming around remembering how successful they were last time. Some of them are successful, because some of them were actually good to begin with. But, I'm sorry to say, most of these guys just suck. They're not as tough as they figure themselves to be. And why do they have this attitude? Because cheap TMs, sigs, and tuneups were allowed. They won so easily with these that they though: "Oh, I kick ***. I must be one of the greatest ASB players alive! No one can stand in my way!"

...You've all seen the kinds of TMs that came out of the Dark Ages. Imagine, now, if you had a Dark/Ghost type Porygon2 equipped with Rune of Protection and Mental Block and the rest of the old TMs... Do you know how easy it is for anyone to crush all opposition with that? It does not take any skill whatsoever.

Basically, the Dark Ages are gone now because they sucked. Almost all traces of it have vanished, but one atrocity remains: the old TMs of the Dark Ages that still linger. If these horrendous things are gotten rid of, ASB will be free of all cheap advantages that could exist at this point. Battlers will win purely by their own skill, and good battlers will not be beaten down by some other battlers who just happen to have(and abuse) some old cheap TMs. I vote to eliminate this ridiculous trash.

Yes. Let's get rid of these old TMs once and for all.

[Prodigy]

Aye.

[Wolfsong]

I vote yes as well.

[Drade130]

yes! get rid of the jiggery pokery!

[Jarreddo]

I'll just go ahead and vote Yes. Why not? I remember the old Rhydon4 days. *shudders involuntarily*

[Dark Dragonite]

Originally posted by Vaporeon911
Wait, I think I'm the only one who actually has TMs. o_o

If you are the only one with old TMs, then obviously they should be gone, but anyways, I say those are insane, and mental block is a suped up amnesia!!

I vote Yes!!

[crazybone]

No.

Have them altered to your liking, such as Mental Block will not affect those with only one move to begin with, and lower the usage, etc., but don't rid of them. They are part of ASB's history.

[S-3]

These moves are too powerful and it is unfair to the Newbie trainers as Impereon said ( am a newbie myself !)
Anyway am Voting "YES" on gettin rid of the old TM's.

[Syberia]

Yes, they should go. Being a relative newbie myself (by newbie, I simply mean that I joined ASB when the current rules were in effect, and it was no longer possible to obtain things such as highly overpowered GL TM's), I think this presents an unfair advantage to all the veterans who possess them (mind you, being veterans, they shouldn't need to resort to the use of such things to achieve victory). Being an approver, I would also like to see the sig moves with something like 25 - 30% damage and no usage restrictions whatsoever go out the window as well; it just simply is not fair if only those who have been around ASB for a relatively long length of time are able to possess them. It's not like anyone is going to wish to challenge any of the GL's if it simply means being pounded into the ground with some ancient TM or sig move (since most of the GL's have overpowered sigs as well) that they themselves will never be able to possess.

[Little_Pikachu]

For those of you who are wanting to know, there are two reasons why we can't just modify the old TMs...

#1: Copyright issues. They're still the intellectual property of the people who wrote them, and several of those people would be hard to find. While it's likely that those people would not care, it's entirely possible that they could raise a stink if they find out we've modified their work without even notifying them. I've seen this happen before a couple times, nearly destroying a couple MU* online games in the process. Trust me -- we ain't touching them.

#2: We really don't have copies of all the old TMs anymore. Most of them were in common use only before dG's attempt to design a central database, and therefore most copies have been lost due to board changes and prunings and whatnot. While we could nerf some and forbid the ones we don't know about, informing people who are not here (meaning those people who own the TMs and are inactive but may or may not come back in the future) would be an impossibly complex task that probably would never be completed. Few people leave contact information when they leave here.

[Deck Knight]

I say, ban the TM's. Sure, they did do hard work for them, however, that can be said for all of us in every battle. They may have beaten 8 people, but anyone could beat 8 people with enough skill/luck. TM's take away the need for skill or luck. Between rune of Protection and Mental Block, and the fact Hidden Power is banned, Vap effectively used TM's that have long since been discontinued to give DRWS no chance in hell of winning. In short, they are discontinued, archaic, and cheaper than dirt, they've already destroyed the Dark/Ghost 700 foot Magikarp, so why not just scrap down all the old screw ups of the past.

In short, Yes. Down with TM's. I'd also like those year old cheap sig moves gone too.

Just one more point: TM's are part of ASB History. Wars are part of World History. Noone but people who lack skill and want an easy way out want TM's, Noone but people who lack intelligence and wish destruction want war.

[Pokemaster Ash]

I think the old TMs should go too.

Even though I was one of the original 8 Gym Leaders (if anyone didn't know that, they're either newbies, missed that History lesson, or were under a rock in the old days), I never used one. Most of them were a bit cheap (and still are).

Also, if the [won't add any words here] Approvers wouldn't let me use my Sig. moves, which were all good and fine when I was still fighting (which was actually this Summer), why the hell should the TMs still be around?

[Icy]

Then let me propose another idea; if the modification of the TM's is impossible:

Not get rid of them, but since so few people own TM's, let the people they battle decide whether or not they should use them. Simple.

[The_Missing_Link]

Originally posted by Totodile43
Then let me propose another idea; if the modification of the TM's is impossible:

Not get rid of them, but since so few people own TM's, let the people they battle decide whether or not they should use them. Simple.

But since so many of us are opposed to the current TMs as they are, there would be no point to decide since we don't want them around anyway

[The Mozz]

Totodile: The existence of these moves has to do with all members of the league. Moves such as Mental Block reflect badly on the league, and should be eradicated. Just like my league has mistakes, and we are always working on them, these attacks need to be fixed.

I'm happy that the league is moving in the right direction by eliminating these moves. ^_^

[Ditto Master]

Meh, while I have Pokemon that have been taught these TM moves (and non are ill-gotten gains thank you very much..simply won from GLs)..like my 'Mr. Mime' w/ Steel Barrier (Or whatever it was called, lol--I don't even remember), I never really used them much. Nor did I *ever* purchase a tuneup. Though, for some odd reason I'll actually mess them--honestly, this is only a game and I find it ridiculous that you fear that some ghost of ASB past is going to haunt you for modifying their sigmove. However, it matters not what I say here and for this reason I will say no more.

Goodbye TMs, you will be sorely missed.

[Mister Mew]

Unless I count wrong, the current tally is Yes-28 No-5

hears the sound of the godly powers of overpowered TMs being sapped from the corrupt people who misuse them, destroying the ground of which their entire successful career of defeating newbies was based on

ahhhh, the wonderful smell of corruption failing in the morning. Nothing brings a tear to my eye quicker than watching than the awe-inspiring sight of over-bearing people with a power trip suddenly losing that power and becoming equal or, more often than not, lower than those they were used to stepping on. It kinda makes you proud to be alive. :-) I doubt even if all the old corrupt veterns suddenly appeared out of the woodworks just long enough to vote no than discappear again until the next vote would this fail this time.

On that note I would like to take this opportunity to move that anyone who hasn't been active in the ASB for more than a month be barred from voting on this. In that way, this thread can't be flooded by said veterns.

Obviously, I vote yes on this and think it will be great to rid the ASB of one of the last remaining scars of the dark past everyone talks about.

New tally, pending that my counting was correct: Yes-29 No-5

Let me point out that one of the no's came from a long inactive vet who came back most likely long enough to vote. Also, another vote came from the most obvious example of abuse of power (It was a give-in that he would vote no.) Just thought I'd bring attention to this.

[100FangCroconaw]

Mister Mew, the tally is actually 30-5

[Charizard04621]

@Mister Mew: We can't just strip certain people of their right to vote. It'd look a hell-of-a-lot like a dictatorship then. ASB is no democracy, but it has so far followed rules of common decency. Just as even non-approvers were allowed to vote for the next Head Approver, anyone'll be allowed to vote once here. I don't think the mods are going to suddenly change that. Besides, what are you afraid of? The "Yes" side is winning six times over.

[Sooty]

I'm surprised this actually needed a vote. Don't ask me why I'm here. Yes.