Osama bin Laden killed

[Dark Sage]

Osama bin Laden is dead. His compound was located by a team of soldiers on Sunday, and after a firefight, he was killed. American troops have possesson of the body.

There is not much for me to say, except to quote President Obama on the matter: "Justice has been done."

[Zak]

Yeah, Obama did away with Osama. Wild...

[DarkestLight]

He shoulda did the address to the nation in his PJ's and made tomorrow a damn holiday

[Master Rudy]

First and foremost I'll say it now: don't turn this into a political debate. Keep the topic strictly on the news of Bin Laden being killed.

With that being said it's about fucking time. The thing most shocking about this however is that this is based on intel from August 2010. Considering how long it took to get to him and how much he remained on the move I'm surprised we found him there eight months after the fact. Was there pattern of sites he moved to that we exploited? Did he just give up and stop running after nearly ten years? Whatever the case may be I for one am glad to see this bastard dead. 9/11 damn near caused my mom a nervous breakdown when it happened due to her years at the WTC in the late 70's, early 80's. Had we remained in NYC and she went back to work there she would have been on floors that took a direct hit from one of the planes. To this day she's refused to look at the list of people killed due to the fact that there's no question or doubt that quite a few people she knew were killed.


UPDATE: As I've been typing this a few details have been relesed by CNN. Here's what I've been able to gather as I didn't have a DVR turned on along with my own insights and thoughts at several points. As details are still slowly being released please excuse any mistakes.

-Operation was conducted by the US Naval Special Warfare Development Group (AKA SEAL Team Six)
-Unknown number of US soldiers involved (info is classifed as ST6 has never released how many members it has)
-Bin Laden was not in the wilderness/mountains....he was actually in the middle of a wealthy civilian area in an Al-Queda compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan. The compound consisted of 18 foot high walls and had a building that was reported to be about eight times the size of other homes in the area.
-ST6 was dropped in via several choppers and spent 40 minutes on the ground engaged in a firefight with Al-Qurda forces. Eventually they got into a shootout with a man that looked like Bin Laden. The man was shot once in the head and the body was recovered for positive ID. A later DNA test has confirmed that the man killed was indeed Bin Laden.
-During the retreat one chopper did have a crash landing outside the city. Offical reason was "mechanical failure" but let's be honest.....they were on the ground for 40 minutes and taking heavy fire. There's a high chance said failure was caused by weapons damage to the chopper. The team was picked up on another chopper. Standard protocol due to the situation they were in called for the total destruction of the chopper and any intel/equipment that they had no time to secure so that it wouldn't possibly fall into enemy hands. One can assume they either torched it or used C4.
-No US injuries/deaths have been reported.....personally I'm sure there were some minor injuries to the team on the chopper that went down (broken glass, minor cuts, ect). However as far as I'm concerned it breaks down like this: no combat injuries/deaths, objective achieved, safe return of all troops involved=successful mission.

Anyway with Bin Laden now dead I'm sure the US will be in a heightened state of alert for awhile as I'm sure Al-Qaeda will want revenge. Either way however it deals a major blow to them.

If it were up to me I'd give the guy that killed the fucker the Medal of Honor. At the very least I expect them all to to get a Bronze/Silver Star.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

And here come the muslims again.

Eye for an eye for an eye for an eye..

[Heald]

Stay classy, Fox News

http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01885/obama-bin-laden_1885035c.jpg

[Ayeun]

http://4gifs.com/gallery/d/184040-1/Bin_ladens_dead.gif

[Dark Sage]

He shoulda did the address to the nation in his PJ's and made tomorrow a damn holiday

It wouldn't have been very dignified for the President to address the nation in his pajamas.


If it were up to me I'd give the guy that killed the fucker the Medal of Honor. At the very least I expect them all to to get a Bronze/Silver Star.

Same here. Too bad that, as members of the U.S. Armed Forces, they aren't allowed to collect the reward posted by the FBI for him.

[Lady Vulpix]

I have no positive feelings for Bin Laden, but only time will tell whether this will change anything. Those who trained him may create a new monster in the future, and those who followed him may see him as a martyr. Bin Laden himself won't be a threat anymore, but others like him probably will.

[Telume]

gmRGUWtm9CM

[Heald]

So why does America have no problem with assassinating a terrorist in a completely foreign country, yet has absolutely no issues with sheltering Irish terrorists who should be extradited to the UK and tried for murder?

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Cuz it's America! Land of the free.

[ChobiChibi]

It just seems so sudden. Haven't heard about him in years and suddenly BAM, they find him and shoot him dead. And none of the US soldiers were injured during the conflict? Sounds like a good run of Call of Duty to me.

I lol'd when I read the BBC article on it, cos they said he took his DNA and confirmed it was his before they chucked his body out to sea. I believe the whole Muslim burial in 24 hours stuff, but where did they get a comparison DNA sample from? And how was it done so quick?

I dunno, I'm not normally into conspiracy theories, but something really doesn't seem right about this.

[Blademaster]

It's amazing what America can do when PSN is down.

[Dark Sage]

I believe the whole Muslim burial in 24 hours stuff, but where did they get a comparison DNA sample from?

From one of his daughters. I read it in one of the articles.

[Magmar]

I think they made it public and did this today because America is bummed about the hundreds killed in the recent tornados.

I actually don't believe that they killed him. There's no evidence! I have a hard time taking the government's "word" on anything because they've lied to the people SO MANY TIMES in the last decade.

[Heald]

I think they made it public and did this today because America is bummed about the hundreds killed in the recent tornados.

I actually don't believe that they killed him. There's no evidence! I have a hard time taking the government's "word" on anything because they've lied to the people SO MANY TIMES in the last decade.
Do you think the government would really lie about this if they hadn't killed Osama? It'll be very easy for it to be disproven, for example, Osama dropping off another tape at Al Jazeera saying 'lol I ain't dead homeboy'.

American Intelligence as it is is a complete laughing stock around the world, so the last thing they would want to do is lie about something as big as this.

[Dark Sage]

If this was a lie orchestrated by our government, all Bin Laden would have to do at this point (because trust me, word of it would reach him) is send a picture of himself with a newspaper dated today to that Arabic television station that always broadcast his messages. Mr. Obama would be exposed as a liar, and everyone in the US would be furious at him and the rest of the government. Bin Laden would love that.

Edit: Besides, not only is Mr. Obama making this claim, but former VP Dick Cheney, one of his harshest critics, is praising him for it.

[DarkestLight]

It wouldn't have been very dignified for the President to address the nation in his pajamas.

>> Really? At 11:45 pm? No, I'm pretty sure with that type of allegation, you could come out in your PJ's and make that statement. That's some real high level shit that supersedes your demeanor or your dress :/

TBH, I think this sting op was done a week or so ago, and they did all they had to do(DNA test, interrogation whathave you) before Obama gave the ok to merc his ass, and then two shots in the dark, leave him with one eye -.-

I hope they dump his body in the damn middle of the Atlantic :/ Let him gt disintegrated by the earth :/

And if Osama rears his head and is all "HAHAH I'm not dead, you fools"
1) Obama might go over there himself and pull a Tony Stark :/
2) There are going to be ALOT of flights to Pakistan :/
3) WWIII starts. Just like that.

[Dark Sage]

First of all, they weren't "mercs". They were Navy Seals.

Second, they didn't wake Mr. Obama up to tell him that Bin Laden was dead. Mr. Obama and his staff were watching the whole thing as it unfolded. Thus, he wasn't in his pajamas to begin with.

You people really don't give the President enough credit. He's smarter and more organized than all of us put together.

[RedStarWarrior]

You people really don't give the President enough credit. He's smarter and more organized than all of us put together.
Speak for yourself.

I do agree, though, Obama was working with intelligence officials the whole time.

[papabopp]

'Merica

[DarkestLight]

First of all, they weren't "mercs". They were Navy Seals.

1) I never called them mercs. I used Merc as a slang term for murder :o.

Second, they didn't wake Mr. Obama up to tell him that Bin Laden was dead. Mr. Obama and his staff were watching the whole thing as it unfolded. Thus, he wasn't in his pajamas to begin with.

2) And You good sir, give me no credit for making a joke about the situation, which has garnished more radical conversation over the last two days than I'd care to paraphrase.

You people really don't give the President enough credit. He's smarter and more organized than all of us put together.


Speak for yourself.

QFT :o

[Dark Sage]

Murder? MURDER?? You're accusing Obama of condoning murder because they didn't try to take Bin Laden alive?

We're taking about a man who ordered three-thousand innocents killed in the worst terrorist attack on US soil. It was an act of war. In cases like this, you cannot waste time with due process.

Certainly, no-one living in New York thinks that it was handled inapproprietly. Everyone here is glad that he's dead. We also think that jokes made about it are not funny. We were scared to death on 9/11, and many of us lost loved ones on that day. Bin Laden deserved death, nothing less. The fact that he used a woman as a human shield right before he was shot proved what kind of hypocrite he was right to the end.

[woz]

hypocrisy itt

[Telume]

I don't think they would lie about something as big as this, you're risking an entire country's rap doing this, not to mention we have a lot of 'allies' riding on this too, they'd hate us if we lied about something so big.

And this isn't including our people hating Obama if he lied about it, it HAS to be true.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

"Bin Laden deserved death, nothing less."

Sure, everyone knows he deserves death, but does that make it a justified reason? There are tons of other people who deserve death, but 'deserving' death does not give you any reasons to 'murder', 'avenge', or 'justi-kill' anyone.

Serial killers get trials, too. Even if it makes you sick.

[kurai]

We're taking about a man who ordered three-thousand innocents killed in the worst terrorist attack on US soil. It was an act of war. In cases like this, you cannot waste time with due process.

Certainly, no-one living in New York thinks that it was handled inapproprietly. Everyone here is glad that he's dead. We also think that jokes made about it are not funny. We were scared to death on 9/11, and many of us lost loved ones on that day. Bin Laden deserved death, nothing less. The fact that he used a woman as a human shield right before he was shot proved what kind of hypocrite he was right to the end.

"a man who ordered"? citation needed
"act of war"? by a non-state actor? don't be silly
"no-one living in New York"? "everyone here is glad"? "we"? citation needed

"you cannot waste time with due process"? this is an astoundingly terrible sentiment, let's just abandon the rule of law entirely in pursuit of an illusory nationalistic agenda and see what happens. i bet it will be great

[Roy Karrde]

"a man who ordered"? citation needed

http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Connecting_bin_Laden_to_9-11


"you cannot waste time with due process"? this is an astoundingly terrible sentiment, let's just abandon the rule of law entirely in pursuit of an illusory nationalistic agenda and see what happens. i bet it will be great

He was offered to surrender, he declined it, as such he died.


Serial killers get trials, too. Even if it makes you sick.

Serial Killers also die in shoot outs when they decide they will not go peacefully with the police.

[kurai]

that's not what due process means
that link provides no evidence to your claim beyond being involved with conspiracy

[Roy Karrde]

that's not what due process means
that link provides no evidence to your claim beyond being involved with conspiracy

As I said in the other topic he was the leader of the organization as such any operation being planned goes through him. He was the man who "ordered" the 9/11 attacks by giving KSM the go ahead with his plan.

[kurai]

no possible evidence can be produced to that effect

[Roy Karrde]

no possible evidence can be produced to that effect

Other than KSM's testamony, the testamony of those that were there when it happened, or even Bin Laden's own confession? Or the mountains of other documents that show he did?

[kurai]

here is where your misunderstanding of due process comes into effect!

since there is no trial or hearing able to be conducted, the legitimacy of that "evidence" is untested and never will be, so you can not provide it as proof

"There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty."

[Roy Karrde]

here is where your misunderstanding of due process comes into effect!

since there is no trial or hearing able to be conducted, the legitimacy of that "evidence" is untested and never will be, so you can not provide it as proof

"There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty."

Actually the evidence has been presented in previous trials as the link above provides. KSM's own trial is linked very closely to Bin Laden, thus evidence, testamony, and confessions given there would more than likely have been used in Bin Laden's trial.

[kurai]

yes, we can just try other people and it automatically applies

no need for all the hassle of constitutionally required due process

[Roy Karrde]

yes, we can just try other people and it automatically applies

no need for all the hassle of constitutionally required due process

Again if he had been captured, and not continued to fight he would have been given due process.

Also again, seeing how the evidence presented in those trials pertained to Bin Laden we can assume that since the evidence was seen as legitimate there, it would be seen as legitimate in Bin Laden's trial.

[woz]

that's not how trials work, mate

[Roy Karrde]

that's not how trials work, mate

If evidence presented in one trial would be deemed legitimate, there is little argument it would not be allowed in another trial as there was already a precedent set in the previous trial.

[Dark Sage]

I don't need a citation to know that everyone in New York was happy that he was dead. I saw the jubilant crowds celebrating in Time's Square on Sunday after the news had been released. People who lived through 9/11 have been waiting for this for years.

As for everything else, see what Roy said. This is one of the few times I agree with him.

[Blademaster]

As a former New Yorker, I'd appreciate not being lumped in with the barbarians dancing in the streets over bin Laden's death the same way Al-Qaeda supporters were partying over the deaths of 3,000 people in the Towers. I'd like to believe that the self-proclaimed 'greatest country in the world' is more civilized than a bunch of mud hut-dwelling radical fundamentalists still living in the Dark Ages.

[Roy Karrde]

As a former New Yorker, I'd appreciate not being lumped in with the barbarians dancing in the streets over bin Laden's death the same way Al-Qaeda supporters were partying over the deaths of 3,000 people in the Towers. I'd like to believe that the self-proclaimed 'greatest country in the world' is more civilized than a bunch of mud hut-dwelling radical fundamentalists still living in the Dark Ages.

So you believe that celebrating the death of a ruthless murderer is the same as celebrating the deaths of 3,000 innocent civilians.

Man you would have been such a buzz kill on VJ and VE day. :P

[crown34]

He didn't deserve a trial. People who fly under a flag get trials, hence foreign murders get deported and tried in their own country. Osama and his terrorist group flies under no flag, hence no trial.

[woz]

jesus christ

[Blademaster]

I dunno what those days are.

And I'm pretty sure that you, in true Roy Karrde fashion, are unable to process a differing opinion than yours and thus rationalize it in the only way you know how: By believing both scenarios to be identical.

It's not like this is some grand, massive achievement. It's not like it's the morning of September 11, 2001 and Osama is raining down hell and laser death on New York from his flying spider doom fortress, twirling his moustache and drinking a goblet of 100 year-old arak while hundreds of people die, and then John McBadass comes swooping in riding a missile, machine-gunning his way into Osama's throne room, putting 50 bullets through his genetically enhanced cyborg body, and flinging him out the cockpit where he plummets thousands of feet and is impaled through the heart on an American flag.

No. It's ten years later. and while I'm glad bin Laden is gone, I'm not about to rally in the streets like this is some major victory: Trillions of dollars and tens of thousands more lives - civilian and soldier, innocent and guilty, American and Muslim - have been spent in order to find and kill one dirty old man with kidney problems, hiding in a Pakistani village. Not an Afghani underground bunker, an endless labyrinth of unnavigable Indiana Jones caverns, or the Goddamn Death Star, but in plain sight, inside of what was basically a reinforced sand castle.

I hardly see this as worthy of the same level of celebration as it is getting.


EDIT: But, this is of course, all just my opinion. You all can do as you like. Just please refrain from including me in it.

[Master of Paradox]

Personally, I'm finding it impossible to care. Obama is just using this as yet another way to prop up his crumbling reputation. It's like how the troop withdrawal will conveniently be complete JUST IN TIME for the 2012 elections.

(For the record, I am not a conspiracy theorist. I do not believe the government had Bin Laden's corpse on ice to be wheeled out when needed. I sure as hell am not a Birther.)

[Dark Sage]

Unbelievable. I'm one of Obama's biggest supporters here, and the person who's agreeing with me most is the biggest Conservative on the TPM!

Did the Allies try to take Hitler alive? No. That's the way it goes sometimes for mass-murderers. Bin Laden was not simply a criminal, and it wasn't the NYPD's job to bring him in. He was a terrorist who had declared war on the United States. He didn't even have any regard for the Geneva Convention and NO regard for the Rules of Engagement; his organization used cowardly tactics like suicide bombings that frequently targeted civilians. He claimed he was fighting a Jihad, and yet many of his victims were Muslims.

This was war. In a war, you can't always take the enemy general alive, or even attempt to do so. With this kind of enemy, you have to do what is necessary to make sure that he's stopped.

[papabopp]

...Allies wanted Hitler alive; Russia however, got there first and fucked him up.
I almost want to claim to be a New Yorker who DOES think it was "handeled inappropriatley" and that i'm NOT "glad" that he is dead just to spite YOU: Dark Sage. Weather or not i agree/disagree I DO refuse to be as Blade said "Lumped in..." with any other group of peoples beliefs or whatever unless I say so myself.
I dont care weather he deserved a trial or how evil he was or anything personal or not, but he was in fact murdered. "Murder is the unlawful killing of another human being with aforethought"-definition of murder.
so far this is probably the first time ive agreed with EVERYTHING that Blade has posted in a thread.

[DarkestLight]

I don't need a citation to know that everyone in New York was happy that he was dead. I saw the jubilant crowds celebrating at Ground Zero on Sunday after the news had been released. People who lived through 9/11 have been waiting for this for years.

As for everything else, see what Roy said. This is one of the few times I agree with him.

I'm from, and still am a New Yorker (Harlemworld, till I die ¬¬.) I have mixed feelings, but none of them are positively happy. I can point out over 100 NYC'ers that feel how I feel, that this is a caution set of relief within anxiousness. We DON'T know how to feel-'cause we never thought it would come like this. This is again, something new for Americans (least this generation.)

No we shouldn't have run out in the damn streets (IMO) like when Obama won the presidency and when Yanks win a World Series. Yes, the families of those that lost folks in 9/11 do feel some sort of rudimentary closure, even though they know killing one man will not equate to the deaths of thousands here and across the globe. I'm sure that even with this news, they're still not entirely happy, but its a damned step forward.

Now, let me make a statement to Roy.

Right now Roy, you bugged out with that statement. No 3000 does not equal 1. But for those families, that one grew to encapsulate all their rage, fear, hatred and confusion as to WHY someone would do this. If it was just those folks out in the streets, I probably would have been like "Meh-its the folks who have the most reason to care."

But no, it was Johnny McCornball and his College friends slapping each other's asses and dunking on trees and taking photos with Uncle Sam hats like "YEAH WE KILLED OSAMA." They aint do SHIT >_O! Those fucks are the ones that cause drama. Children seeing those folks outside of D.C. and Ground Zero are gonna be confused cause omg we're celebrating a dead bad guy? Pakistanies are gonna see that, and they're not gonna remember how they acted 9 years ago when the towers fell (and for the record, that was not all of Pakistan, that was Al-Qaeda infused cities that were caught cheering, not everyone in Pakistan thought it was the best thing since cable TV, since they got that in 2000). They're gonna be like "Whoa, they're really happy they killed that dude."

No ones taking the time to explain to children, or to themselves why they're celebrating. Everyone's just saying "WE GOT HIM." and not thinking, "well no I'm relieving some of the anxiety I felt for over 9 years." Yeah, Terror is still here. Osama did what he set out to do, and that was break the American Bubble of Invincibility... good job Osama.

So we did what? As Blade said, spend trillions to find his ass. And we did. And they found him. And he shot at us and Johnny McBadass shot him twice in his left eye so he could watch some hot shit coming to fill his face. In this case, fuck due process. He didn't do like Saddam, who crawled in a damn hole and didn't really resist us himself (Which allowed us to do due process). No. He came out like Rambo and tried to eradicate another infidel-only to get tagged up like markdowns in JCPenny. I'm not saying that it was handled inappropriately, but it was handled the way it needed to go down.

Evil gets what evil deserves, and there's no avoiding that. But Dark Sage, I would really appreciate if you take back that comment about all of NY liking Osama being dead :/ I for 1, am no celebrating his death. I'm at most acknowledging some noticeable shift in the scales of balance for us all. It just have a massive epicenter here-and that center is Ground Zero.

[Roy Karrde]

Now, let me make a statement to Roy.

Right now Roy, you bugged out with that statement. No 3000 does not equal 1. But for those families, that one grew to encapsulate all their rage, fear, hatred and confusion as to WHY someone would do this. If it was just those folks out in the streets, I probably would have been like "Meh-its the folks who have the most reason to care."

But no, it was Johnny McCornball and his College friends slapping each other's asses and dunking on trees and taking photos with Uncle Sam hats like "YEAH WE KILLED OSAMA." They aint do SHIT >_O! Those fucks are the ones that cause drama. Children seeing those folks outside of D.C. and Ground Zero are gonna be confused cause omg we're celebrating a dead bad guy? Pakistanies are gonna see that, and they're not gonna remember how they acted 9 years ago when the towers fell (and for the record, that was not all of Pakistan, that was Al-Qaeda infused cities that were caught cheering, not everyone in Pakistan thought it was the best thing since cable TV, since they got that in 2000). They're gonna be like "Whoa, they're really happy they killed that dude."

Here is the thing, that one, is in no way relatable to the 3,000 that died. That one was a mass murderer, a terrorist, a nut job, one who sought out to kill and harm people. Those 3,000 were innocent, they committed no crime against al Qaeda other than being alive. They were innocent civilians that al Qaeda choose to murder.

As such it is absolutely wrong to link one celebration to another, one celebration is to the end of a mass murderer who has haunted this country for far longer than one decade. The other is to celeberate the death of innocent people who died simply for going to work that morning.

Since we are using WW2 as a example here, it would be like saying Jews celebrating the death of Hitler, is the same as German soldiers celebrating the death of Jews. Those two celeberations are in no way comparable.

To put it simply to say the two are the same is to engage in False Moral Equivalency.

[Dark Sage]

Fine, I take it back. I shouldn't have said "everybody".

I keep forgetting that there are no absolutes in this world, except for the one that says that there are no absolutes.

[DarkestLight]

Here is the thing, that one, is in no way relatable to the 3,000 that died. That one was a mass murderer, a terrorist, a nut job, one who sought out to kill and harm people. Those 3,000 were innocent, they committed no crime against al Qaeda other than being alive. They were innocent civilians that al Qaeda choose to murder.

As such it is absolutely wrong to link one celebration to another, one celebration is to the end of a mass murderer who has haunted this country for far longer than one decade. The other is to celebrate the death of innocent people who died simply for going to work that morning.

Since we are using WW2 as a example here, it would be like saying Jews celebrating the death of Hitler, is the same as German soldiers celebrating the death of Jews. Those two celebrations are in no way comparable.

To put it simply to say the two are the same is to engage in False Moral Equivalency.

If I said earlier that they are the same, than I would be I the collective wrong. I don't believe I said that, but I'm going to explain in a hopefully better way what I mean about the witnessing and meaning of the celebrations and why the celebrations themsevles are similar whereas the reasons why they are celebrating can differ so much.

..It would seem that they are in no way comparable. At least, that would be the case, if there wasn't celebrations in the first place. The reasons the celebrations exist are as different as night and day, but the connective tethers? The One and the 3000...

That 1 made 3000 disappear, and then suddenly, this one is finally eradicated...Its like the Damn genocide of the Jedi by Vader :o Holy crap its wrong, but there is a balance that needed to be restored. We'll never understand that balance, but its there, and it was shifted back toward equilibrium, if only slightly. For that-there was celebration.

If you'd also take a second outlook...consider the 2001 celebrations in Pakistan. Of seeing a massive power in the world crippled by people that this massive country considered lowly. Made them (Al-Qaeda) feel pretty powerful. They felt balance shift in their favor due to in their anarchy. They shifted the scales of terror to now conclusively include America. Now we finally Tagged Osama. That terror scale is shifted back ever slightly for us.

Case being, we're never gonna get our invulnerability back as far as I can see. Balance is too much on their end...this was a boon but it only raised up a slight bit, May take the gen after the current one growing up now before we might even come close to that impervious mindset again, and raise that scale back to being even (if it ever was even). Therefore the celebrations still come, whenever those scales are moved. That's how they're similar. They celebrate because of the success of an event that the parties consider significant

And uhhh...

Most of the natural world hasn't even HEARD of False Moral Equivalency, and aren't going to think of that when they saw/see people cheering in the streets :o They didn't then, and they aren't going to start now.


Oh. Thank you for the removal of the absolution Dark Sage.

[Roy Karrde]

It would seem that they are in no way comparable. At least, that would be the case, if there wasn't celebrations in the first place. The reasons the celebrations exist are as differnt as night and day, but the connective tethers? The One and the 3000...

So you admit that the celebrations are not comparable.


If you'd also take a second outlook...consider the 2001 celebrations in Pakistan. Of seeing a massive power in the world crippled by people that this massive country considered lowly. Made them (Al-Qaeda) feel pretty powerful. The felt balance in their anarchy. Shifted the scales of terror to now include America. Now we finally Tagged Osama. That terror scale is shifted back ever slightly for us.

However that imbalance was created in the blood of 3,000 innocent people, while it was shifted back in the blood of one guilty person. They can celebrate America getting a bloody nose, but it is ignorant to ignore how that bloody nose occurred.


Case being, we're never gonna get our invulnerability back as far as I can see. Balance is too much on their end...this was a boon but it only raised up a slight bit, May take the gen after the current one growing up now before we might even come close to that impervious mindset again, and raise that scale back to being even (if it ever was even). Therefore the celebrations still come, whenever those scales are moved. That's how they're similar.

Again it is too simplistic, you need to understand WHY the celeberations are occuring, HOW they are being brought about. One is being brought about by the deaths of thousands of innocent people, the other isn't. Ignoring that, again is a act of False Moral Equivalency



Most of the natural world hasn't even HEARD of False Moral Equivalency, and aren't going to think of that when they saw/see people cheering in the streets :o They didn't then, and they aren't going to start now.

You do not need to hear of it to know that the celebration of 3,000 innocent people is not comparable to the celebration of 1 guilty person. Such a thing should be just common sense.

[DarkestLight]

So you admit that the celebrations are not comparable.

The words "would seem" does not implicitly state that I believe they're not comparable. Like when you read Shakespeare. You can read a sentence, and you might think it means one thing, but then you delve deeper and see there's more than how you immediately interpreted it. :O


However that imbalance was created in the blood of 3,000 innocent people, while it was shifted back in the blood of one guilty person. They can celebrate America getting a bloody nose, but it is ignorant to ignore how that bloody nose occurred.

Yes, but do the Al-Qaeda Pakistani's know how many people died? Prolly not. Do they care? No. And yeah it may be ignorant, but that's our take on them and their understanding, not theirs.


Again it is too simplistic, you need to understand WHY the celebrations are occurring, HOW they are being brought about. One is being brought about by the deaths of thousands of innocent people, the other isn't. Ignoring that, again is a act of False Moral Equivalency.

No they dont. I doubt the average Pakistani is watching those fools celebrate, and are willing to find information to understand WHY they're in the streets with OSAMA BIN PWNED shirts (Saw one. Shook head in shame)-HOW they could be so happy about one dude dying. One baseline fact is that both celebrations came about because of death :/ Both sides celebrate due to death. Doesn't matter HOW death came to be. Doesn't matter WHY death came about. Death came about-and people celebrated. That's their hardline similarity and even that's fact.

And the scales are not balanced. They've shifted...but we are still at a MASSIVE deficit.

You do not need to hear of it to know that the celebration of 3,000 innocent people is not comparable to the celebration of 1 guilty person. Such a thing should be just common sense.

Tell that to Saudi Arabia when Saddam was hanged. But they danced in the damn streets. They think its comparable. Common sense is not as cut and dry as one would wish. The sense is in direct correlation to human emotion-so common sense can vary.

[Roy Karrde]

The words "would seem" does not implicitly state that I believe they're not comparable. Like when you read Shakespeare. You can read a sentence, and you might think it means one thing, but then you delve deeper and see there's more than how you immediately interpreted it. :O

Except we have delved deeper into it, the only ones able to make such a connection are those that are taking a simplistic view of the events.


Yes, but do the Al-Qaeda Pakistani's know how many people died? Prolly not. Do they care? No. And yeah it may be ignorant, but that's our take on them and their understanding, not theirs.

You can watch the towers burn and realize that thousands would have died.

Hell you could say that even if one innocent person died compared to Osama Bin Laden makes the situation completely dissimilar. The number really has nothing to do with it, the fact that people are comparing celebrations of innocent deaths, to a guilty one is what matters.


No they dont. I doubt the average Pakistani is watching those fools celebrate, and are willing to find information to understand WHY they're in the streets with OSAMA BIN PWNED shirts (Saw one. Shook head in shame)-HOW they could be so happy about one dude dying. One baseline fact is that both celebrations came about because of death :/ Both sides celebrate due to death. Doesn't matter HOW death came to be. Doesn't matter WHY death came about. Death came about-and people celebrated. That's their hardline similarity and even that's fact.

Again that is a simplistic view. As the situations surrounding those deaths MUST be understood if a comparison would be made, if not you are again making a False Moral Equivalency

Are they both celebrating a death? Yes. However the question then must be asked, are both deaths similar? The answer to that is No. One is a mass murderer, the other is thousands of innocent people. That key fact is what separates the two.


Tell that to Saudi Arabia when Saddam was hanged. But they danced in the damn streets. They think its comparable. Common sense is not as cut and dry as one would wish. The sense is in direct correlation to human emotion-so common sense can vary.

There was celebration in Iraq ( Not sure why you think Saudi Arabia would be celebrating ) at Saddam's death, due to the horrors and pain he brought upon innocent people for decades there.

[Dark Sage]

Darkest Light, I should warn you... Roy never lets up until he has the last word. You'll never win.

[Roy Karrde]

Personally I think I made my point beyond that we are going around in circles and I have finals to attend to.

[Drago]

Going in circles has never stopped these political debates before... :rolleyes:

[DarkestLight]

Real fast. No, the situations do not have to be explained. They aren't explained explicitly to children. They aren't explained to people in other countries. The world sees these two events, and to them, I'm sure we would hear a thousand different ideas on the concepts of justification and morality but they'd all say the same thing.

These people dance due to death. Just like how I scream, you scream, we all scream for ice cream :o You may make the case yours is a exemplified yell, and not a scream, but that guy over there who just sees up to making sounds. Yeah he'll say "Yeah they were both screaming." Your or my singular outlook will not matter-the collective reasoning will be the one that sticks-Moral Equivalency or not. And that's another factor you cannot change.

Yeah Iraq, not Saudi Arabia. Misspoke there. But yeah, they celebrated. They killed a guy. Pretty sure when he killed a couple thousand folks he and his family were in their palace celebrating the good life. :/ Same thing. Each side has a ....right? No. Not the correct term...

a reason to celebrate. Whether its right or wrong is up for each and every individual to decide. Bringing me back to here. Its about death. That's why they celebrate.
Did you celebrate? No.
Did I? No.
Did we understand the reasoning for celebration. Yes.
Did we understand their reasoning for celebrating? ....Maybe.
Do they know 3000=/=1? Yes
Do they FEEL that way? ...Hard to tell. Some people feel its closure. Some people feel its a start. Some feel nothing at all. They're not denying the number, they're not denying anything. But they are accepting what has happened as some point of leveling the scales-whether explicit or simple.

You can get explicit as you want Roy, the bottom line is this. You're never gonna be right in the eyes of someone that views this as a triumph. They're gonna dance, and yer gonna say its not right, But for them it is :/ Whether simple or explicit...they still line up to people dancing the dance of death.

Anyway...Obama '12! I'll continue later if you feel its not exhausted, otherwise I'm effing hungry and wanna eat :D.


LOL couldn't resist.

DS: I'm in AMERICA! WE ALWAYS WIN! WE KILLED OSAMA *shot!*

[papabopp]

*pew pew*

[homeofmew]

http://coverawards.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/5.20.11.jpg

~ WIN ~

[ChobiChibi]

Did you celebrate? No.

Got this little gem for ya.


I was outside of Bush's house over at Preston Hollow partying!

I bid my farewell *poof*

[RedStarWarrior]

The only trial Osama deserves is the one he has to face before Allah. Any actual trial would have magnified the idea of martyrdom. I believe judge and jury were the shot to the head and the heart and the bitch deserved nothing more. Anyone who disagrees has every right to do so, but it doesn't mean I'll give a shit about your opinion.

[Dark Sage]

The only trial Osama deserves is the one he has to face before Allah. Any actual trial would have magnified the idea of martyrdom. I believe judge and jury were the shot to the head and the heart and the bitch deserved nothing more. Anyone who disagrees has every right to do so, but it doesn't mean I'll give a shit about your opinion.

Not exactly how I'd say it, but I... kinda agree with you there... Kinda... I think...

[DarkestLight]

I do too :/ But I agree wholeheartedly

[shazza]

I haven’t had time to read through this entire thread, although I would be willing to do so when giving more time, but I shall just share my scattered thoughts before I slumber. While I have no doubt that Osama bin Laden was the main person responsible for 9/11, having killed him before a trial leaves no proper proof. This is rather disappointing in one aspect, for a proper trial would have proved his connection; and to see him in the court would be an extremely surreal sight.

He did not deserve to live. But death is an easy way out. There is a part of me that would have preferred for all the families to make him suffer more than an instant shot to the head.

What is done is done, however. This is hopefully the beginning of the end, but I am most probably being idealistic.

And it's rather funny: over the weekend just gone, I was briefly reflecting on the lack of Osama updates over recent months. I Wiki’ed his article and whatnot.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Agreeing with shazza here.

[Shadow Wolf]

*After reading all of this...*

There's no peace... not even in a TPM thread...

Anyway, 3000 human beings... 1 terrorist... thousands of people in Irak... A lot of people in my country... whether its terrorism, war, drugs, idealism... human beings are still dying.

[Roy Karrde]

I personally am a alternate history buff, having done a project in my Sci Fi and Fantasy class based around some alternate history novels. As such some one has already put out a article on how things may have played out if we had captured Bin laden.


They had trained tirelessly and prepared for every conceivable contingency — guards armed with automatic weapons, martyrs with suicide bombs lashed to their bodies, escape routes through which the most wanted man in the world might yet elude them — except for the one that greeted them when they reached the third floor of the compound in Abbottabad, Pakistan, and headed for an open door, weapons poised.

A white flag hung from the door. Inside the room, standing against the far wall, her hands raised, was a young woman. Next to her, with his hands raised, stood a 6-and-a-half foot tallman, clad in white robes, a small smile on his face. He spoke a single, brief phrase in Arabic.

“What did he say?” one SEAL shouted to the lone interpreter.

“He said” — the interpreter shook his head in disbelief — “he said: ‘I surrender.’ ”

Seven thousand miles away, the men and women in charge of U.S. national security listened in the Situation Room as the CIA director relayed the news from the SEAL team. After years of effort, months of planning, hours of anxiety, there was a long moment of silence.

“We can’t let the S.O.B. live!” the vice president said. “Leon, he’s a lawful target, right?”

The CIA chief shook his head. “They had full authority to kill him,” he explained. “But under the rules of engagement, if he in fact threw up his hands, surrendered and didn’t appear to represent any kind of threat, then they were to capture him. And if the video showed our guys shooting a man in the obvious act of surrendering . . .” He stopped as the image of the terrorist leader appeared on-screen.

“You know what really gets to me?” the president said. “That smile. Almost like he knows something we don’t.”

By the time 2011 came to an end, all of them had a much better idea of what Osama bin Laden had been smiling about.

It began with a triumph. On Sunday evening, May 1, President Obama strode down a red carpet and spoke to the nation from the East Room of the White House:

“Good evening. Tonight, I can report to the American people and to the world that the United States has conducted an operation that captured Osama bin Laden, the leader of al-Qaeda, and a terrorist who’s responsible for the murder of thousands of innocent men, women, and children. It is the unbreakable intention of this country to bring him to justice.”

But by Monday morning, the celebrations — the chants of “U.S.A.! U.S.A.!” in city streets, on college campuses, outside the White House, even at a nationally televised baseball game — had given way to questions.

“Why did we take him alive?” a dozen radio talk-show hosts asked. “Aren’t 3,000 dead Americans enough?”

“I am sure,” Rush Limbaugh thundered, “that Attorney General Holder is prepared to bring charges against those SEALs that they didn’t read Osama his Miranda rights.”

Among congressional Republicans, praise for the capture was followed by demands for swift and firm justice — including a suggestion by one House member that bin Laden be executed and buried in pigskin “to prevent him from meeting up with those 72 virgins in paradise.”

But U.S. officials faced a far more consequential challenge: Where would bin Laden go, and what would happen to him?

The arguments began almost from the moment bin Laden arrived at Bagram air basehigh in the mountains of Parwan province in Afghanistan. Every possibility came with serious flaws.

Put him on trial for mass murder in a New York federal court? Nearly 3,000 had died there. But what if information about his whereabouts had been obtained through “enhanced interrogation techniques” and was ruled inadmissible? What if bin Laden acted as his own lawyer, turning the trial into a months-long denunciation of America and the West? What if one holdout resulted in a hung jury?

And anyway, the furious reaction to previous efforts to try Khalid Sheik Mohammed in Manhattan — New York politicians reversing themselves, Congress denying any funds for such a trial — made that idea impossible.

What about an international tribunal, to drive home the fact that bin Laden’s crimes were against humanity?

“As a political matter,” one White House insider reflected anonymously to the press, “that would have brought the wrath of the right down on us: ‘We were the ones he attacked, and we’re going to be the ones to deal with him.’ ”

“Besides,” she added, “there were much more serious objections. The International Criminal Court could deal only with crimes committed after 2002. As for a war crimes tribunal at The Hague, that court would not impose the death penalty — can you imagine the president signing off on that small detail?”

A military commission at Guantanamo Bay, then? The process was agonizingly slow (only five cases concluded in nine years), and a death sentence for bin Laden would mean years of appeals.

Even those legal questions were nothing next to the global security consequences of capturing, rather than killing, bin Laden.

His survival further enhanced his image as an outlaw-hero whose cunning and skill outwitted the West. When an anonymous solider or worker at Bagram snapped a cellphone picture of Osama, smiling and flashing a V sign with his hand, that image appeared on Web sites around the world and on posters in the streets of a dozen cities, with supporters chanting: “The sheik lives!”

And far, far worse, early on the morning of Dec. 22, members of Lashkar-i-Taiba, the Pakistan-based terror organization responsible for the Mumbai slaughters of 2008, seized an elementary school in New Delhi, holding more than 200 children and teachers hostage and threatening to kill them unless bin Laden was released within 72 hours. Simultaneously, a dozen armed terrorists attacked the U.S. Embassy in Islamabad, killing three guards before being repulsed.

Within the Obama administration, suspicion immediately arose that Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence agency was linked to these attacks. The ISI, long believed to have links to the Taliban, if not to al-Qaeda itself, had been enraged at Washington for violating Pakistani sovereignty when it captured bin Laden. Those suspicions further eroded relations between the United States and the nation long considered indispensable to the Afghan war effort.

More broadly, the attacks stirred fears of similar acts aimed at U.S. Embassies, bases and businesses around the globe. Back home, airport security was heightened so much that holiday travelers faced four-hour delays at security checkpoints, countless missed flights and jangled nerves.

On Christmas Eve, the president — forced by political pressure to cancel his own Hawaii vacation — gathered his inner circle in the Oval Office for a cheerless Christmas toast.

“Any wishes for the holidays?” someone asked.

“Yes, as a matter of fact,” the president said. “I wish someone had pushed that bastard out of the helicopter seven months ago.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/what-if-bin-laden-had-been-captured-not-killed-an-alternate-history/2011/05/05/AFl7EO8F_story.html

The article does mention something interesting I never thought about. Capturing Bin Laden with all his stature in the Arab world, and really all around the world. Could bring about hostage situations in which demands are made for Bin Laden's release. Killing him may bring retaliatory attacks. But those are painful yet swift. How many times could America watch as a Jihadist captures a school full of children, and holds them hostage for hours on end, demanding for the release of Bin Laden, and all of us knowing in the end, there is a pretty good chance all of those kids will be dead.

[Telume]

I don't care, I'm just glad he's dead.

[Dark Sage]

Bin Laden wasn't a criminal, he was the commander of an enemy regime and a terrorist, who had decalred war on the United States. He was a legitamate target. This was not a "political assassination" because Bin Laden was not a politician. He was a terrorist.

How many times do we have to drive that into your heads?

Are you one of those people who believed all of Trump's lies? Like the one where he said he was sending teams to Hawaii to investigate Obama's citizenship? Or even better, the one where he said he was considering running for President?

Like he would really cancel The Apprentice and open his financial records to do it.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Osama is so two weeks ago.





:D