2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[mr_pikachu]

There's been enough talk about candidates and such as of late that I figured it was about time we had a thread devoted to the election. So, which candidates are you supporting? Who has the best chance to win, and who's committing political suicide as we speak? For that matter, will our eventual president improve on the previous four years or make matters worse for our country?

Ladies and gentlemen, you may fire when ready.

[Roy Karrde]

I will be supporting Rick Perry, I believe he has the best chance of winning via the economic message he brings. Having been Governor of a state that brings in 40%+ of the entire employment growth of the nation helps. Right now Bachmann is in a slow burn of political suicide as well as allowing the story get ahead of her. Right now I can only see a new President as a improvement of the country. The last 3 years have been nightmarish.

[Gavin Luper]

I like Obama and I think he will still manage to get in for a second term.

[Heald]

Screw them all. Elect someone who realises America needs to stop shitting all over the rest of the world and gets your own house in order first.

[Katie]

perry can go eat a big bag of dicks. please donate your own money to me because my mansion burned down and I need to build a new mansion, poor poor me a bloo bloo :'(

[Roy Karrde]

perry can go eat a big bag of dicks. please donate your own money to me because my mansion burned down and I need to build a new mansion, poor poor me a bloo bloo :'(

Yeah the Gov's mansion did burn down, it was arson (suspects are link to a Anarchist terrorist group ), and the Governor's need a mansion to work out of, especially Texas which hosts foreign dignitaries all the time. If the White House were to burn down ( again ) we would expect the tax payers to fund a place for the President to work out of.

Edit: Also to note not any house will do also, it has to meet the specifications of the Texas Rangers as they protect the Governor.

[Gavin Luper]

Saw some stuff about Rick Perry on the news. Not so much impressed. Another Texan "social conservative"? Ugh.

[Roy Karrde]

Saw some stuff about Rick Perry on the news. Not so much impressed. Another Texan "social conservative"? Ugh.

Yeah except he absolutely hates George W Bush. Is not a "Compassionate Conservative" like Bush was, and is willing to allow states to have their own marriage laws if there is no Congressional action on Gay Marriage. And then there is his own relationship with the Muslim community. So no I wouldn't call him just "Another Social Conservative"

And then there is that whole thing about Texas creating nearly half the jobs in the entire nation...

[Blademaster]

I vote that we disband our Presidential system and replace it with a Grand Council of accountants so we can get this fucking multi-bajillion dollar deficit under control.

[Becky]

I vote that we disband our Presidential system and replace it with a Grand Council of accountants so we can get this fucking multi-bajillion dollar deficit under control.

I love this response, Blade!

I don't have a preference for a candidate yet. It'll probably be a few more months before I figure out who I'm going to support.

Gavin, out of curiosity, what's your rationale for Obama?

[Gavin Luper]

I love this response, Blade!

I don't have a preference for a candidate yet. It'll probably be a few more months before I figure out who I'm going to support.

Gavin, out of curiosity, what's your rationale for Obama?

Mostly from a slightly selfish, social rights point-of-view, because he is likely the only one who would ever go for legislating for gay marriage and repealing DOMA, and to be honest, quite aside from being good for Americans, it would be a very big pressure on the Australian government to follow suit. He hasn't backed same-sex marriage but he's making noises on it, and I think if he gets in for a second term he will come around and legislate for it.

Also, I believe him as an orator. He's extremely eloquent, intelligent and skilled with his speech, and I think that is something seriously lacking in politics, so I really respect that. As a figure, I think he comes across as an amazing leader, too - he has a strong presence.

Now, as for whether he has the financial credentials to help America out of the mess it's in, I have absolutely no idea, and I'd even be inclined to say no at this stage. But hell, who knows? Desperation can make some amazing things happen, and I bet he's desperate as hell to get in for that second term.

[Roy Karrde]

Mostly from a slightly selfish, social rights point-of-view, because he is likely the only one who would ever go for legislating for gay marriage and repealing DOMA, and to be honest, quite aside from being good for Americans, it would be a very big pressure on the Australian government to follow suit. He hasn't backed same-sex marriage but he's making noises on it, and I think if he gets in for a second term he will come around and legislate for it.

He would need Congress to do something like that, something he will not have. Especially with the pretty much lame duck status he already has.

Also, I believe him as an orator. He's extremely eloquent, intelligent and skilled with his speech, and I think that is something seriously lacking in politics, so I really respect that. As a figure, I think he comes across as an amazing leader, too - he has a strong presence.

Yeah but with a approval rating at 40%, no one is following him, or listening to him.

[Gavin Luper]

Yeah but with a approval rating at 40%, no one is following him, or listening to him.

Most of the recent polls seem to put him somewhere between 42-44%, which is not as bad as his low of 40%. And a year is a long time to recover from an approval rating of 42-44%, which is hardly disastrous - many other presidents have had much lower approval ratings at one point or another and still got in for a second term. So if he can use his skills to his advantage over the next year, I think he has a shot, especially if he can put forward some good policies and deliver some kind of rousing speeches, which I think he's capable of.

As for his gay rights stance, I'm not saying that legalising gay marriage would get through the parliamentary system necessarily; rather, I'm saying if he made it his position, it would serve as a beacon to other countries.

And I still like him immensely for getting rid of Don't Ask, Don't Tell at last.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah but with a approval rating at 40%, no one is following him, or listening to him.

Roy, that claim is self-defeating. Apparently, at least 40% of people are listening to him.

Right now Bachmann is in a slow burn of political suicide as well as allowing the story get ahead of her.

And yet, she won the Iowa straw poll. That shows what a mess the GOP is in right now.

As for Perry, he's a bigot. I would never in a million years vote for him. His desire to push for a Constitutional Amendment that will outlaw gay marriage will guaruntee that he'll lose.

If you want my honest opinion, I think that if the GOP was smart, they would go with Romney. However, I do not think that the GOP is smart. I hear nothing but lunacy from any of them. Obama is the only politician who makes sense when I listen to him these days.

[Deadwood_Zen]

Or at replace every politician in office now with someone who has some common sense and will vote based off what needs to be done instead of what will get them elected another term?

[Heald]

Obama made the mistake of thinking the Republicans would give a shit about what he wanted to do. He should have fucked compromise and just got on with the job at hand. Regardless of his actual policies he seems to have completely hamstrung by his ridiculous belief that he needed the GOP's approval to get shit done. If this is to be his only term it will be defined by his sheer inaction and lack of the reform he touted.

[shazza]

Obama was elected based on idealistic hope that he will rectify all the wrong doings of the Bush Administration. The 2008 was a black and white election (no pun intended) in that if Bush is the man of “wrong”, then concurrently Obama is the man of “right” – and he capitalised on this consensus and promised change. To an extent he has made change for the better, and indeed far better than Bush, however his gift of charm and eloquence is now becoming his own blight: as the dire reality of the economic catastrophe is being truly realised – such a disaster is going to take years of rectification, quite beyond the Obama Administration (reegardless if it is one or two terms). People are realising that, once again, idealism is not the reality, so they are inevitably turning on him – specifically in the wake of the recent debt ceiling fiasco, confirming that idealism =/= reality.

To capitalise on people’s hopes is too big of enormous task to back up with, and will only result in a downhill slide for the incumbent. Further elections should not delude the voters and accept the reality of the situation. This, however, poses a problem that if both the Republicans and Democrats admit the sheer problem they have dug themselves in, then voters will lose faith in either major party. Damned if you do; damned if you don't.

God Bless America!

[Bear]

imo Rick Perry has the best name for a President. Just sayin'

Also unless Obama does something drastic his reputation is gonna be far too shot to get re-elected.

[Blademaster]

A discussion of topics concerning the future of the national polity? On our board of miscellanea?

[Gavin Luper]

When will they actually nominate their presidential candidate?

[mr_pikachu]

Well, the caucuses/primary elections for each party go state-by-state (in addition to the U.S. territories), and not all of them have yet been scheduled, so there's no set date for everything. It will start in December or January, though, and generally a fair number of candidates drop out of the race after the first few primaries once it becomes clear that they have no chance and would just be wasting their money if they continued. I imagine we'll be down to two or three halfway-legitimate candidates by the end of February, when a lot of the bellwether states will have already voted. The Republican candidate should be decided by the end of June at the absolute latest.

For a more comprehensive guide, Wikipedia is your friend.

[Gavin Luper]

Thank you, sir. So, a long way to go yet before we know.

[mr_pikachu]

Gavin: Yes, although with primaries starting in around two months, anyone who doesn't get in the game very soon is going to be one of those early drops. At the rate things are going now, it will be a Romney-Cain battle halfway through February. I've seen radical swings in political races, but not when the momentum is against you -- with Perry's momentum carrying him downward and everyone else in a very deep hole against the two current front-runners, something has to happen in a hurry to prevent that two-man race from coming to pass.

If we hit December with the numbers looking anything like this, it'll take a miracle for Perry or anyone else to even survive against Romney and Cain. So, while there's some time to wait before the actual polls arrive, we can predict a lot before it becomes official.



Jeff: Well, Florida angered a lot of the other states by setting a primary date of January 31, violating party rules by trying to be first. Since then, the other states have been one-upping each another to have the earliest primary, so that's why the schedule is so ridiculous this year.

[Dark Sage]

Unfortunately, Brian, Cain's 9-9-9 plan will hurt him once everyone figures it out. When you look at it, it's downright ludicrous.

Edit: By the way, just so you know...

Romney and Perry have raised $30 million combined for their campaigns so far. Cain has raised less than $3 million, and has spent half of it.

Obama has raised more than $70 million.

If contributions are a sign of support, I think that Obama's chances are looking better.

[mr_pikachu]

How, exactly, is a flat tax ludicrous? Because it doesn't punish people for being successful and gives businesses the opportunity to hire more employees, thus ensuring that more people are able to find jobs rather than relying on welfare benefits for years on end? It sounds reasonable enough to me.

As for fundraising, I'd be shocked if Obama had raised less than any of the GOP candidates. He's the only Democratic candidate, while Republican money is divided across a slew of candidates. Once the GOP has its nominee, those numbers should even out a bit (even if they never become totally equal -- Obama has a head start on fundraising given the otherwise empty Democratic field, after all).

[Dark Sage]

Brian, 9-9-9 increases income tax and sales tax for both the middle class and the poor. It even taxes things that are not taxed now. It's another example of class warfare where the rich will spit on the lower class if it ever becomes a reality (which it won't).

[Jeff]

I'm surprised the primaries are starting that early. I remember thinking that the '08 primaries were early, and they were actually in 2008.

[mattbcl]

There's a debating term applicable to this particular situation - it's called "ten words". At the heart of this concept, the candidate offers a simple solution to a complex problem. When first heard, the solution gives people pause because they wonder why nobody considered it earlier. It has a way of shaping national discussion, so it's not necessarily a bad practice - it gets people talking. My problem with it is that the U.S. is a country way too big and way too complex for these "ten-word answers". We need the ten words that follow that answer, and the ten after that. Those words, unfortunately, get lost in the shadow of the first ten words.

Which is probably why the discussion, as played out in the posts above this one, is the one everybody should be having. I approve of this debate. It's something we ought to be talking about.

[Dark Sage]

"If you don't have a job, blame yourself!"

Spoken by Cain, just days ago. It showed how much he sympathized with everyone who can't find work.

Do we want the man who said that to be in charge of solving the unemployment problem?

[mr_pikachu]

Yes, I've quoted that line elsewhere, myself. I think it was an incredibly poor word choice that can and will come back to haunt Cain as this election goes forward. While it was a response to an extreme situation -- the Occupy Wall Street protests that have disrupted traffic and businesses, resulting in injured police officers and dozens of arrests (painting a scary picture regardless of the ideals being espoused) -- the quote, when taken out of context (and even, to a certain extent, when left in context) makes Cain look incredibly unsympathetic. I guarantee he will be attacked repeatedly for that line, and it might cost him the nomination or the eventual election.

With that in mind, I don't think that a quote borne from frustration detracts from the merits of the 9-9-9 policy itself. If the solution works, then it works regardless of what its creator said in the meantime. The only question there, as far as I'm concerned, is whether that quote will prevent him from having the chance to put the policy into action.

[Dark Sage]

After listening to the GOP debate tonight, I would say that the two winners are Cain... and Mr. Obama.

The GOP is in serious trouble. They're not only opposing Obama, they're opposing each other like hated rivals. They were acting like children at this debate. Cain was the only one who kept his cool throughout it all.

In particular their remarks about immigration, taxes, and Israel will likely alienate Hispanic, Jewish, and middle class voters, groups that Obama is doing his best to cement his hold on.

On another note, I think Huntsman was smart by boycotting this debacle altogether. In fact, he's the one Republican I can stand. (Although some may call him a RINO, so I doubt he'd ever do well this time around.)

[Roy Karrde]

After listening to the GOP debate tonight, I would say that the two winners are Cain... and Mr. Obama.

The GOP is in serious trouble. They're not only opposing Obama, they're opposing each other like hated rivals. They were acting like children at this debate. Cain was the only one who kept his cool throughout it all.

Bickering between rivals really does nothing in the general election as we have seen in 2008. If so we would have President McCain right now as Hillary and Obama had some of the nastiest campaign rhetoric seen in a long time.

In particular their remarks about immigration, taxes, and Israel will likely alienate Hispanic, Jewish, and middle class voters, groups that Obama is doing his best to cement his hold on.

Pandering to the Hispanic vote by ignoring our nation's immigration laws does not win them over as seen in 2008 with McCain. As for the Jewish vote, if they do care about Israel to the point it determines who they vote for, then Obama is in ALOT of trouble. As we saw recently with the Democrats losing Anthony Weiner's seat as Orthodox Jews voted in droves because of the administration's poor position on Israel.

[Dark Sage]

Herman Cain has once again proven that he is not qualified to be President, by proving that he has little knowledge of how the government is run.

He told the Christian Broadcasting Network in an interview that he would sign a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion.

He said, and I quote, "I feel that strongly about it. If we can get the necessary support and it comes to my desk I’ll sign it. That’s all I can do. I will sign it."

Unfortunately for Cain, he apparently did not know that when a Constitutional Amendment is propsosed, the President never signs it. In fact, he plays almost no role in the process.

We can add this to his other gaffs, like his proposal to put an electrified fence on the US-Mexican border that would kill anyone trying to cross it. He later said this was a joke. I, for one, did not think it was funny.

There are still loonies out there who want proof that Mr. Obama was born in this country, despite the fact that proof exists. At this point, I want proof that Mr. Cain even went to college.

[Gavin Luper]

America should make voting compulsory so they don't need to flush quite so many millions down the dunny trying to get people interested in their campaign.

Also, while the core ideals and general rebellion of Occupy Wall St are both things I can get on board with, there is a real sense of entitlement and self-victimisation going on there that I despise.

The photos of people whining about "I'm in $20k of student loans debt. Once I go on and do my masters in this degree that I know won't get me a job, there will be another $15k of debt I'll be in and unable to pay." Um, okay, common sense would say don't do your masters if you don't think you can pay for it, and maybe get a job instead before you pursue further studies. But no, instead, it's blame the government and demand handouts.

For the record, I'm a student myself and barely breaking even each week. But it's entirely my choice to take up my studies and I'll work extra if I need to (just got a second job). I realise the job market is abysmal in the U.S. right now but that means people should be even more concerned with putting plans in place to make the best of their situation and manage their money well.

Also, there is a lot of misandry going on. Apparently they had this whole "step up, stand back" thing happening at some of the rallies where "white males" (whoever that covers) were barred from speaking first because the movement ought to help traditionally marginalized groups - women, homos, etc. - and thus men, and especially "straight white men" have been told they ought to step back and suck it up, basically, because their problems aren't as important.

I fail to see how a straight man who's unemployed and in a truckload of debt has less of a right to be heard than a woman or a homosexual man in the exact same situation. They're all in the same boat here, they should be unifying not dividing themselves.

[Jeff]

Yeah, discrimination is discrimination, no matter who it's against.

This whole "movement" is just full of ridiculousness. I saw one video where whenever someone was speaking, every time they said something, the entire crowd would repeat what they said. The idea was that that way, nobody would be "more important" than anyone else. In practice though, it looked like a kindergarten class where the teacher makes her students repeat everything to make sure they're listening. Not only was it annoying, but it almost seemed like a mind control thing.

I wish I could find the video, I saw it in one of the political news threads at Bulbagarden, and they've all been moved to a private forum. I can't even remember what the video's called.

[Dark Sage]

I live in NYC, and I personally think that the whole Occupy Wall Street protests are the most unorganized mess I have ever seen. The "movement" lacks leaders of any sort, and it's clear that most of these protesters do not have any idea about the nature of the cause they are protesting. It isn't at all like the more famous protests in this nation's history, which were far more organized.

Having said that, I still believe that Cain's remark was uncalled for. I don't care how much of a "self-made man" he is. You can't ask the unemployed to blame themselves in this economy.

[Heald]

"Let's fire everyone who works in the financial sector!"

Yeah that's a great idea you blackfoot mongs

[Asilynne]

Even though when unexplained it does sound a bit horrible, I know what he is trying to say when he says "Blame yourself". While I'm not saying you should blame yourself if you can't get the kind of job you want, what he's saying is take your life into your control, rather than point the finger at everyone else for your problems, get motivated and decide "I want the things I want and I will do what I have to to get them".

I've been unemployed for a month twice this year, because of being laid off the first time and the second one because it was quite literally a man's job. Everyone who worked there with me helped me so much and was all for a woman joining, that wasn't the problem, it was that even being a strong woman I still couldn't really handle the every day strenuousness of the work, it was a very physically demanding job. Each time I found myself out of work I applied everywhere, got a lot of interviews but I also was rejected repeatedly. It started to make me almost blame the economy and shout out that its not my fault if no one hires me. But I can't just sit around whinging about the state of the world, I am in control of my own life and if I want a good job I will go out and get it. And so I took some security classes, got some certs under my belt, and continued to apply everywhere. Which resulted in me finally getting a job that pays better than any I have had so far, with health insurance, and one that I actually like as well.

This isn't luck, this is seeing what I don't like about life and being determined enough to do it. If everyone was this motivated and relentless, there would be a lot less unemployment. There ARE jobs out there, you might have to suck it up and put aside your pride to work them (I have also worked at 7/11 once because I needed a job and I refuse to sit around collecting unemployment) but there ARE options. Being 'uneducated' isn't even an excuse because I don't have a degree either, I couldn't afford to go to college.

So yes, that's what I think he means. Its the same value my dad instilled within us kids. You might have to work a shit job, have 3 or 4 roommates in a rental, but there are options out there besides being unemployed. When you really want something you'd be surprised at how inventive you can get, and still make an HONEST living.

(Also I think part of the problem is it pays more to be collecting unemployment than a lot of shit jobs pay for actually working, that doesn't strike me as encouraging people to work.)

[Blademaster]

As much as I'm not a fan of Herman Uncle Ruckus (no relation) Cain, that "Blame yourself if you're unemployed." is something I can get behind. I'm unemployed and I blame myself for it every day (Luckily I have a BOE meeting soon that'll land me a job in the local school system.), and looking at how my parents respond to unemployment, it pretty much DOES equate to it being your fault that you're a jobless bum if you have the resources to get a job.

Of course, this doesn't apply to everybody. If you're a smelly hobo with broken teeth that eats out of the McDonald's dumpster, you have my sympathy because it's not that easy for you to get a job within walking distance of your cardboard box. But the chunk of unemployed people in America who complain about being jobless when they have the resources with which to GET a job of some variety but not the inclination... Well, they can honestly go get right fucked.

[Gavin Luper]

Even though when unexplained it does sound a bit horrible, I know what he is trying to say when he says "Blame yourself". While I'm not saying you should blame yourself if you can't get the kind of job you want, what he's saying is take your life into your control, rather than point the finger at everyone else for your problems, get motivated and decide "I want the things I want and I will do what I have to to get them".

I've been unemployed for a month twice this year, because of being laid off the first time and the second one because it was quite literally a man's job. Everyone who worked there with me helped me so much and was all for a woman joining, that wasn't the problem, it was that even being a strong woman I still couldn't really handle the every day strenuousness of the work, it was a very physically demanding job. Each time I found myself out of work I applied everywhere, got a lot of interviews but I also was rejected repeatedly. It started to make me almost blame the economy and shout out that its not my fault if no one hires me. But I can't just sit around whinging about the state of the world, I am in control of my own life and if I want a good job I will go out and get it. And so I took some security classes, got some certs under my belt, and continued to apply everywhere. Which resulted in me finally getting a job that pays better than any I have had so far, with health insurance, and one that I actually like as well.

This isn't luck, this is seeing what I don't like about life and being determined enough to do it. If everyone was this motivated and relentless, there would be a lot less unemployment. There ARE jobs out there, you might have to suck it up and put aside your pride to work them (I have also worked at 7/11 once because I needed a job and I refuse to sit around collecting unemployment) but there ARE options. Being 'uneducated' isn't even an excuse because I don't have a degree either, I couldn't afford to go to college.

So yes, that's what I think he means. Its the same value my dad instilled within us kids. You might have to work a shit job, have 3 or 4 roommates in a rental, but there are options out there besides being unemployed. When you really want something you'd be surprised at how inventive you can get, and still make an HONEST living.

(Also I think part of the problem is it pays more to be collecting unemployment than a lot of shit jobs pay for actually working, that doesn't strike me as encouraging people to work.)

Wow. Well said, and I agree. I'm from a working/middle class family and that's the same work ethic we had instilled in us.

As much as I'm not a fan of Herman Uncle Ruckus (no relation) Cain, that "Blame yourself if you're unemployed." is something I can get behind. I'm unemployed and I blame myself for it every day (Luckily I have a BOE meeting soon that'll land me a job in the local school system.), and looking at how my parents respond to unemployment, it pretty much DOES equate to it being your fault that you're a jobless bum if you have the resources to get a job.

Of course, this doesn't apply to everybody. If you're a smelly hobo with broken teeth that eats out of the McDonald's dumpster, you have my sympathy because it's not that easy for you to get a job within walking distance of your cardboard box. But the chunk of unemployed people in America who complain about being jobless when they have the resources with which to GET a job of some variety but not the inclination... Well, they can honestly go get right fucked.

I've also noticed/encountered lots of people with degrees who will say "I have a degree, and a Master's, and I can't even find a job!"

And after some questioning, it turns out what they actually mean is, "I have a degree, and a Master's, and I can't find a cushy job in my field. There is no way I am working in retail or hospitality or manual labour because it's hard, thankless work and it's beneath me since I'm educated. Instead I will go on the dole and whine about being unemployed."