2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[mattbcl]

There's a debating term applicable to this particular situation - it's called "ten words". At the heart of this concept, the candidate offers a simple solution to a complex problem. When first heard, the solution gives people pause because they wonder why nobody considered it earlier. It has a way of shaping national discussion, so it's not necessarily a bad practice - it gets people talking. My problem with it is that the U.S. is a country way too big and way too complex for these "ten-word answers". We need the ten words that follow that answer, and the ten after that. Those words, unfortunately, get lost in the shadow of the first ten words.

Which is probably why the discussion, as played out in the posts above this one, is the one everybody should be having. I approve of this debate. It's something we ought to be talking about.

[Dark Sage]

"If you don't have a job, blame yourself!"

Spoken by Cain, just days ago. It showed how much he sympathized with everyone who can't find work.

Do we want the man who said that to be in charge of solving the unemployment problem?

[mr_pikachu]

Yes, I've quoted that line elsewhere, myself. I think it was an incredibly poor word choice that can and will come back to haunt Cain as this election goes forward. While it was a response to an extreme situation -- the Occupy Wall Street protests that have disrupted traffic and businesses, resulting in injured police officers and dozens of arrests (painting a scary picture regardless of the ideals being espoused) -- the quote, when taken out of context (and even, to a certain extent, when left in context) makes Cain look incredibly unsympathetic. I guarantee he will be attacked repeatedly for that line, and it might cost him the nomination or the eventual election.

With that in mind, I don't think that a quote borne from frustration detracts from the merits of the 9-9-9 policy itself. If the solution works, then it works regardless of what its creator said in the meantime. The only question there, as far as I'm concerned, is whether that quote will prevent him from having the chance to put the policy into action.

[Gavin Luper]

America should make voting compulsory so they don't need to flush quite so many millions down the dunny trying to get people interested in their campaign.

Also, while the core ideals and general rebellion of Occupy Wall St are both things I can get on board with, there is a real sense of entitlement and self-victimisation going on there that I despise.

The photos of people whining about "I'm in $20k of student loans debt. Once I go on and do my masters in this degree that I know won't get me a job, there will be another $15k of debt I'll be in and unable to pay." Um, okay, common sense would say don't do your masters if you don't think you can pay for it, and maybe get a job instead before you pursue further studies. But no, instead, it's blame the government and demand handouts.

For the record, I'm a student myself and barely breaking even each week. But it's entirely my choice to take up my studies and I'll work extra if I need to (just got a second job). I realise the job market is abysmal in the U.S. right now but that means people should be even more concerned with putting plans in place to make the best of their situation and manage their money well.

Also, there is a lot of misandry going on. Apparently they had this whole "step up, stand back" thing happening at some of the rallies where "white males" (whoever that covers) were barred from speaking first because the movement ought to help traditionally marginalized groups - women, homos, etc. - and thus men, and especially "straight white men" have been told they ought to step back and suck it up, basically, because their problems aren't as important.

I fail to see how a straight man who's unemployed and in a truckload of debt has less of a right to be heard than a woman or a homosexual man in the exact same situation. They're all in the same boat here, they should be unifying not dividing themselves.

[Jeff]

Yeah, discrimination is discrimination, no matter who it's against.

This whole "movement" is just full of ridiculousness. I saw one video where whenever someone was speaking, every time they said something, the entire crowd would repeat what they said. The idea was that that way, nobody would be "more important" than anyone else. In practice though, it looked like a kindergarten class where the teacher makes her students repeat everything to make sure they're listening. Not only was it annoying, but it almost seemed like a mind control thing.

I wish I could find the video, I saw it in one of the political news threads at Bulbagarden, and they've all been moved to a private forum. I can't even remember what the video's called.

[Dark Sage]

I live in NYC, and I personally think that the whole Occupy Wall Street protests are the most unorganized mess I have ever seen. The "movement" lacks leaders of any sort, and it's clear that most of these protesters do not have any idea about the nature of the cause they are protesting. It isn't at all like the more famous protests in this nation's history, which were far more organized.

Having said that, I still believe that Cain's remark was uncalled for. I don't care how much of a "self-made man" he is. You can't ask the unemployed to blame themselves in this economy.

[Heald]

"Let's fire everyone who works in the financial sector!"

Yeah that's a great idea you blackfoot mongs

[Asilynne]

Even though when unexplained it does sound a bit horrible, I know what he is trying to say when he says "Blame yourself". While I'm not saying you should blame yourself if you can't get the kind of job you want, what he's saying is take your life into your control, rather than point the finger at everyone else for your problems, get motivated and decide "I want the things I want and I will do what I have to to get them".

I've been unemployed for a month twice this year, because of being laid off the first time and the second one because it was quite literally a man's job. Everyone who worked there with me helped me so much and was all for a woman joining, that wasn't the problem, it was that even being a strong woman I still couldn't really handle the every day strenuousness of the work, it was a very physically demanding job. Each time I found myself out of work I applied everywhere, got a lot of interviews but I also was rejected repeatedly. It started to make me almost blame the economy and shout out that its not my fault if no one hires me. But I can't just sit around whinging about the state of the world, I am in control of my own life and if I want a good job I will go out and get it. And so I took some security classes, got some certs under my belt, and continued to apply everywhere. Which resulted in me finally getting a job that pays better than any I have had so far, with health insurance, and one that I actually like as well.

This isn't luck, this is seeing what I don't like about life and being determined enough to do it. If everyone was this motivated and relentless, there would be a lot less unemployment. There ARE jobs out there, you might have to suck it up and put aside your pride to work them (I have also worked at 7/11 once because I needed a job and I refuse to sit around collecting unemployment) but there ARE options. Being 'uneducated' isn't even an excuse because I don't have a degree either, I couldn't afford to go to college.

So yes, that's what I think he means. Its the same value my dad instilled within us kids. You might have to work a shit job, have 3 or 4 roommates in a rental, but there are options out there besides being unemployed. When you really want something you'd be surprised at how inventive you can get, and still make an HONEST living.

(Also I think part of the problem is it pays more to be collecting unemployment than a lot of shit jobs pay for actually working, that doesn't strike me as encouraging people to work.)

[Blademaster]

As much as I'm not a fan of Herman Uncle Ruckus (no relation) Cain, that "Blame yourself if you're unemployed." is something I can get behind. I'm unemployed and I blame myself for it every day (Luckily I have a BOE meeting soon that'll land me a job in the local school system.), and looking at how my parents respond to unemployment, it pretty much DOES equate to it being your fault that you're a jobless bum if you have the resources to get a job.

Of course, this doesn't apply to everybody. If you're a smelly hobo with broken teeth that eats out of the McDonald's dumpster, you have my sympathy because it's not that easy for you to get a job within walking distance of your cardboard box. But the chunk of unemployed people in America who complain about being jobless when they have the resources with which to GET a job of some variety but not the inclination... Well, they can honestly go get right fucked.

[Gavin Luper]

Even though when unexplained it does sound a bit horrible, I know what he is trying to say when he says "Blame yourself". While I'm not saying you should blame yourself if you can't get the kind of job you want, what he's saying is take your life into your control, rather than point the finger at everyone else for your problems, get motivated and decide "I want the things I want and I will do what I have to to get them".

I've been unemployed for a month twice this year, because of being laid off the first time and the second one because it was quite literally a man's job. Everyone who worked there with me helped me so much and was all for a woman joining, that wasn't the problem, it was that even being a strong woman I still couldn't really handle the every day strenuousness of the work, it was a very physically demanding job. Each time I found myself out of work I applied everywhere, got a lot of interviews but I also was rejected repeatedly. It started to make me almost blame the economy and shout out that its not my fault if no one hires me. But I can't just sit around whinging about the state of the world, I am in control of my own life and if I want a good job I will go out and get it. And so I took some security classes, got some certs under my belt, and continued to apply everywhere. Which resulted in me finally getting a job that pays better than any I have had so far, with health insurance, and one that I actually like as well.

This isn't luck, this is seeing what I don't like about life and being determined enough to do it. If everyone was this motivated and relentless, there would be a lot less unemployment. There ARE jobs out there, you might have to suck it up and put aside your pride to work them (I have also worked at 7/11 once because I needed a job and I refuse to sit around collecting unemployment) but there ARE options. Being 'uneducated' isn't even an excuse because I don't have a degree either, I couldn't afford to go to college.

So yes, that's what I think he means. Its the same value my dad instilled within us kids. You might have to work a shit job, have 3 or 4 roommates in a rental, but there are options out there besides being unemployed. When you really want something you'd be surprised at how inventive you can get, and still make an HONEST living.

(Also I think part of the problem is it pays more to be collecting unemployment than a lot of shit jobs pay for actually working, that doesn't strike me as encouraging people to work.)

Wow. Well said, and I agree. I'm from a working/middle class family and that's the same work ethic we had instilled in us.

As much as I'm not a fan of Herman Uncle Ruckus (no relation) Cain, that "Blame yourself if you're unemployed." is something I can get behind. I'm unemployed and I blame myself for it every day (Luckily I have a BOE meeting soon that'll land me a job in the local school system.), and looking at how my parents respond to unemployment, it pretty much DOES equate to it being your fault that you're a jobless bum if you have the resources to get a job.

Of course, this doesn't apply to everybody. If you're a smelly hobo with broken teeth that eats out of the McDonald's dumpster, you have my sympathy because it's not that easy for you to get a job within walking distance of your cardboard box. But the chunk of unemployed people in America who complain about being jobless when they have the resources with which to GET a job of some variety but not the inclination... Well, they can honestly go get right fucked.

I've also noticed/encountered lots of people with degrees who will say "I have a degree, and a Master's, and I can't even find a job!"

And after some questioning, it turns out what they actually mean is, "I have a degree, and a Master's, and I can't find a cushy job in my field. There is no way I am working in retail or hospitality or manual labour because it's hard, thankless work and it's beneath me since I'm educated. Instead I will go on the dole and whine about being unemployed."

[Dark Sage]

I have an MA in Psychology.

Despite this, I'm working as a security guard, something I've done for five years. It's not my ideal job, but I'll take it in this economy.

[Gavin Luper]

I have an MA in Psychology.

I never knew that! That's pretty cool.

[Heald]

The Occupy/99% protest in the UK is a complete mess. It suffers from an identity crisis and that it seems to largely consist of bored young men and women who have enough of their parents' money to go and join other like-minded people instead of, say, looking for a job.

First of all, you have people waving Egypt and Palestine flags. Then you have the Socialist Worker brigade who hold up signs equating capitalism to racism. Some people dressed in Guy Fawkes masks. Then the people sitting there whining about greed and the failure of capitalism whilst sitting there on their £400 iPad. Yes, seriously. People who have taken a serious enough stance to join a protest against greed and excess are tweeting away on their iPads.

The 99% is what annoys me. Last time I checked, in the UK, only 29% voted for the Socialist party, yet this is what these people seem to want: Socialism. Sorry, no one wants Socialism. Look at what Socialism did to Russia, to Vietnam, to Cambodia.

[Dark Sage]

After listening to the GOP debate tonight, I would say that the two winners are Cain... and Mr. Obama.

The GOP is in serious trouble. They're not only opposing Obama, they're opposing each other like hated rivals. They were acting like children at this debate. Cain was the only one who kept his cool throughout it all.

In particular their remarks about immigration, taxes, and Israel will likely alienate Hispanic, Jewish, and middle class voters, groups that Obama is doing his best to cement his hold on.

On another note, I think Huntsman was smart by boycotting this debacle altogether. In fact, he's the one Republican I can stand. (Although some may call him a RINO, so I doubt he'd ever do well this time around.)

[Roy Karrde]

After listening to the GOP debate tonight, I would say that the two winners are Cain... and Mr. Obama.

The GOP is in serious trouble. They're not only opposing Obama, they're opposing each other like hated rivals. They were acting like children at this debate. Cain was the only one who kept his cool throughout it all.

Bickering between rivals really does nothing in the general election as we have seen in 2008. If so we would have President McCain right now as Hillary and Obama had some of the nastiest campaign rhetoric seen in a long time.

In particular their remarks about immigration, taxes, and Israel will likely alienate Hispanic, Jewish, and middle class voters, groups that Obama is doing his best to cement his hold on.

Pandering to the Hispanic vote by ignoring our nation's immigration laws does not win them over as seen in 2008 with McCain. As for the Jewish vote, if they do care about Israel to the point it determines who they vote for, then Obama is in ALOT of trouble. As we saw recently with the Democrats losing Anthony Weiner's seat as Orthodox Jews voted in droves because of the administration's poor position on Israel.

[RedStarWarrior]

Fuck the illegals. Any candidate showing leniency towards them is out in my book.

(I'm part Latino, BTW)

[Asilynne]

Fuck the illegals. Any candidate showing leniency towards them is out in my book.

(I'm part Latino, BTW)

I totally agree and I understand why exactly. I hate how candidates and people in general try and turn the discussions about 'illegals' into a race thing, ITS NOT ABOUT FUCKING RACE ITS ABOUT BREAKING THE LAW. I don't care what race, nationality, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc you are, if you are breaking the fucking law you should get punished. If you are here illegally, gtfo, because SOME of us want to have our loved ones immigrate here the right way and its because of all the problems with illegals getting in that the 'right way' is so damn hard and expensive.

And giving illegals which are here right now a free ticket to stay is the stupidest damn idea I have ever heard. Here lets everyone hurry up and smuggle into the US so we get a free ticket to stay. Rawr...

[Dark Sage]

Herman Cain has once again proven that he is not qualified to be President, by proving that he has little knowledge of how the government is run.

He told the Christian Broadcasting Network in an interview that he would sign a Constitutional Amendment banning abortion.

He said, and I quote, "I feel that strongly about it. If we can get the necessary support and it comes to my desk I’ll sign it. That’s all I can do. I will sign it."

Unfortunately for Cain, he apparently did not know that when a Constitutional Amendment is propsosed, the President never signs it. In fact, he plays almost no role in the process.

We can add this to his other gaffs, like his proposal to put an electrified fence on the US-Mexican border that would kill anyone trying to cross it. He later said this was a joke. I, for one, did not think it was funny.

There are still loonies out there who want proof that Mr. Obama was born in this country, despite the fact that proof exists. At this point, I want proof that Mr. Cain even went to college.

[Asilynne]

You're assuming that college = intellegence...which is not always true. I'm not going to get into your other statements, but yeah lol

[Gavin Luper]

You're assuming that college = intellegence...which is not always true. I'm not going to get into your other statements, but yeah lol

I agree with this - lots of the most intelligent/business-savvy/wealthy/financially successful/powerful people I know didn't go to university. It's not the be all and end all of education in life.

[Dark Sage]

Fine.

What I meant to say was, Cain is too stupid to lead a Cub Scout troop.

And I don't mean that as a joke.

[Magmar]

Dear lord, the elections are 12 months-ish away. My third presidential election to vote in! I'm getting old.

The state of affairs in the GOP is terrifying. The recent debate was appalling. I can't believe the things that came out of these assholes' mouths. I don't want any of them running my country. I'm not staunchly against Republicans in general, but these radical folk need to not be the ones to run this country.

And I hate to say it, but I think despite Obama having <50% approval rating... I'm pretty sure some of that >50% who "disapprove" are going to vote him in again anyway because he's so much better than any of these gits who are trying to get into the Oval Office.

Obama has been campaigning on issues of social equity and job growth. These folks are campaigning on taking away women's rights, gay rights, and affordable healthcare--how can someone possibly want any of these things to come to pass?? Obama is my president and I'm loyal to him. I wish the people in congress would listen to their boss.

I am inches away from starting a recall congress movement. I think the occupy movement would love their lives and catch on very quickly. It's constitutional and would help get things done! No more of this "split" bullshit. You douchebags listen to your boss and your constituents. Selfish assholes.

[Roy Karrde]

And I hate to say it, but I think despite Obama having <50% approval rating... I'm pretty sure some of that >50% who "disapprove" are going to vote him in again anyway because he's so much better than any of these gits who are trying to get into the Oval Office.

That is very hard seeing how those who do not think he will be re elected is also over 50% and he has a very distinct chance of even losing his own very liberal state, Illinois.

Obama has been campaigning on issues of social equity and job growth. These folks are campaigning on taking away women's rights, gay rights, and affordable healthcare--how can someone possibly want any of these things to come to pass??

Curious what Affordable Healthcare you are talking about? You mean the Unconstitutional Obama Care? Because that did nothing to make Healthcare "Affordable" in fact it did the opposite.

Obama is my president and I'm loyal to him. I wish the people in congress would listen to their boss.

Umm Obama is not the boss of Congress, they are their own separate branch of the Federal Government.

What I meant to say was, Cain is too stupid to lead a Cub Scout troop.

And I don't mean that as a joke.

RACIST! YOU ARE SAYING HE ISN'T SMART BECAUSE HE IS BLACK



Couldn't help it, seeing how often Liberals throw around the race card when confronted with the fact that Obama is a absolute idiot.

[Magmar]

Congress still needs to be recalled. They aren't doing their jobs. Same as any board of directors or group of managers in a corporation that aren't getting their jobs done, leading to diminished value of the firm for the shareholders. They fail at business 101.

[Gavin Luper]

I don't understand American health care. In Australia we have Medicare and it's basically awesome. What's the deal with the U.S.?

[Roy Karrde]

Congress still needs to be recalled. They aren't doing their jobs. Same as any board of directors or group of managers in a corporation that aren't getting their jobs done, leading to diminished value of the firm for the shareholders. They fail at business 101.

The problem is that there are incredible constraints put on Congress now. They cannot do what they are so used to do, that being throwing money at the problem. They need to go to business leaders, and work on reforming the tax code and reforming regulations. It's a hard and long process, but its the only choice they have left as throwing money at it won't fix the problem.

[DarkestLight]

o.O So as not to sound like I'm attacking you Roy-I really want to know what you feel is necessary-as a supporter of the Republican Ideal (maybe, or maybe I have your stance wrong-if so, that needs clarification.) in order to have America be a sound nation again-and then answer me this:

Why do you feel in the light of the current three years, any person, despite what party they aligned to-could have done a better job with the US state of affairs than Obama?

I just feel that both parties are bickering too damn much and I'd rather have Obama continue to lead and see if his 10 year plan actually holds some merit, than to cut him down when we've just reached the halfway point.

[Roy Karrde]

o.O So as not to sound like I'm attacking you Roy-I really want to know what you feel is necessary-as a supporter of the Republican Ideal (maybe, or maybe I have your stance wrong-if so, that needs clarification.) in order to have America be a sound nation again-and then answer me this:

Why do you feel in the light of the current three years, any person, despite what party they aligned to-could have done a better job with the US state of affairs than Obama?

I just feel that both parties are bickering too damn much and I'd rather have Obama continue to lead and see if his 10 year plan actually holds some merit, than to cut him down when we've just reached the halfway point.

Actually I believe that some one else could have done a much better job. Consider what Obama's approach has been, leading from behind. He had little to no hand in crafting the Stimulus as such it failed miserably. Programs like Cash for Clunkers and Housing credits was essentially throwing money down the tubes as we now know. But most importantly he and his party tied up Congress for over a year working on a Health Care plan that more than likely will be struck down by the courts as the economy languished. That year wasted was very important and could have been spent working on the economy in eras of taxation and regulations. I could go on and on and on about how much of a failure he has been, and how his class warfare rhetoric does not help but I think you get the idea.

[Mewtwo-D2]

I don't understand American health care. In Australia we have Medicare and it's basically awesome. What's the deal with the U.S.?

The basics: America is supposed to have a competitive healthcare system, where different insurance companies offer different plans, attempting to get you to buy them. There is Medicare for seniors and Medicaid for the poor, both funded by taxpayers. Medicare in specific is supposed to be funded by a sacrosanct trust fund that all workers in this country pay into, with the idea that it will be there to help them when they age into it. That's the theory.

In reality, we do not have a competitive insurance system. Congress has legislated it within an inch of it's life, creating artificial shortages. For example, insurance companies are legislated by what must be on their policy (in many cases, services that the average consumer will not need and does not want, but that drive the price up anyway. Imagine it as if when you bought car insurance, you had to buy a policy on a motorcycle and a fishing boat as well). They are not allowed to cross state lines - I live in Virginia, and even if there is a company in New York that better serves my needs, I am not allowed to buy that insurance if I do not move to New York. Also, we have no caps on malpractice payouts, no requirements that medical malpractice juries contain anyone even remotely knowledgeable about medicine at all, and a system that rewards ambulance chasing. We have free and low-cost clinics, but they do not get enough funding to have good hours, and we get an added burden by the fact that most illegal immigrants and many poor people go to the emergency room for the slightest illness or injury. They do not pay at all, jacking the prices up across the board.

What Obamacare does: Mandates that everyone must buy insurance, or have a job that provides insurance. Those who do not buy insurance can face fines or jail time. Corporations can pay a massive fee and not have to provide insurance for their employees - a massive fee easily swallowed by mega-corporations, especially ones that pay their workers minimum wage. So, basically, minimum wage workers are going to have to buy their own insurance, which Congress has already mandated must be a comprehensive plan (men and post-menopausal women alike must get a policy with maternity benefits, if their state mandates it), which does nothing but jack the price up. Doctors have been forced out of work in droves because of malpractice cases - not doctors that were personally convicted of malpractice, but doctors in the same field (for example, thanks to former Democratic candidate John Edwards, the obstetrician who delivered me was forced out of business. He had an excellent record, and was respected and sought after, but after John Edwards convinced a jury of slack-jaws that not performing C-sections causes cerebral palsy, he could no longer afford his massive malpractice insurance hike. The same with a lot of other gynecologists and obstetricians, creating shortages in women's health care). The answer is apparently for doctors to work for less, but the average med school graduate is at least $10K in debt and makes roughly as much as a waiter in a good restaurant, so there isn't much incentive for new doctors to begin with. These artificially created shortages have already started rationing, with mental health care and women's health care taking the biggest hits.

Obama is doing his damnedest to incite class warfare, but I have no idea why. He received more Wall Street funds than any candidate in history, and despite all his talk about evil corporations, he's given them the very easy choice of paying his administration a lot of money and getting to ignore the laws that he set up himself. It explicitly favors megacorporations, and explicitly penalizes small business. McDonald's can afford to pay the fine and get out of having to pay for insurance for each of it's employees, but Bob's Burgers can not afford the fine, and can not afford to buy expensive comprehensive insurance plans for all of it's employees. So McDonald's keeps on the same as it has before, while Bob's either closes, or has to go down to a skeleton staff, because if Bob doesn't buy insurance for all his workers, he could go to jail.

[Gavin Luper]

The basics: America is supposed to have a competitive healthcare system, where different insurance companies offer different plans, attempting to get you to buy them. There is Medicare for seniors and Medicaid for the poor, both funded by taxpayers. Medicare in specific is supposed to be funded by a sacrosanct trust fund that all workers in this country pay into, with the idea that it will be there to help them when they age into it. That's the theory.

In reality, we do not have a competitive insurance system. Congress has legislated it within an inch of it's life, creating artificial shortages. For example, insurance companies are legislated by what must be on their policy (in many cases, services that the average consumer will not need and does not want, but that drive the price up anyway. Imagine it as if when you bought car insurance, you had to buy a policy on a motorcycle and a fishing boat as well). They are not allowed to cross state lines - I live in Virginia, and even if there is a company in New York that better serves my needs, I am not allowed to buy that insurance if I do not move to New York. Also, we have no caps on malpractice payouts, no requirements that medical malpractice juries contain anyone even remotely knowledgeable about medicine at all, and a system that rewards ambulance chasing. We have free and low-cost clinics, but they do not get enough funding to have good hours, and we get an added burden by the fact that most illegal immigrants and many poor people go to the emergency room for the slightest illness or injury. They do not pay at all, jacking the prices up across the board.

What Obamacare does: Mandates that everyone must buy insurance, or have a job that provides insurance. Those who do not buy insurance can face fines or jail time. Corporations can pay a massive fee and not have to provide insurance for their employees - a massive fee easily swallowed by mega-corporations, especially ones that pay their workers minimum wage. So, basically, minimum wage workers are going to have to buy their own insurance, which Congress has already mandated must be a comprehensive plan (men and post-menopausal women alike must get a policy with maternity benefits, if their state mandates it), which does nothing but jack the price up. Doctors have been forced out of work in droves because of malpractice cases - not doctors that were personally convicted of malpractice, but doctors in the same field (for example, thanks to former Democratic candidate John Edwards, the obstetrician who delivered me was forced out of business. He had an excellent record, and was respected and sought after, but after John Edwards convinced a jury of slack-jaws that not performing C-sections causes cerebral palsy, he could no longer afford his massive malpractice insurance hike. The same with a lot of other gynecologists and obstetricians, creating shortages in women's health care). The answer is apparently for doctors to work for less, but the average med school graduate is at least $10K in debt and makes roughly as much as a waiter in a good restaurant, so there isn't much incentive for new doctors to begin with. These artificially created shortages have already started rationing, with mental health care and women's health care taking the biggest hits.

Obama is doing his damnedest to incite class warfare, but I have no idea why. He received more Wall Street funds than any candidate in history, and despite all his talk about evil corporations, he's given them the very easy choice of paying his administration a lot of money and getting to ignore the laws that he set up himself. It explicitly favors megacorporations, and explicitly penalizes small business. McDonald's can afford to pay the fine and get out of having to pay for insurance for each of it's employees, but Bob's Burgers can not afford the fine, and can not afford to buy expensive comprehensive insurance plans for all of it's employees. So McDonald's keeps on the same as it has before, while Bob's either closes, or has to go down to a skeleton staff, because if Bob doesn't buy insurance for all his workers, he could go to jail.

Thanks for that summary - that was enormously comprehensive and gives me a bit more insight. It seems like the American health care system has real issues, then.

Australia's Medicare (from Wikipedia, but it's a good description):

"Medicare is Australia's publicly funded universal health care system, operated by the government authority Medicare Australia. Medicare is intended to provide affordable treatment by doctors and in public hospitals for all resident citizens and permanent residents except for those on Norfolk Island. Residents with a Medicare card can receive subsidised treatment from medical practitioners who have been issued a Medicare provider number, and fully subsidised ("free") treatment in public hospitals. Visitors from countries which have reciprocal arrangements with Australia have limited access to Medicare, as detailed below. The Australian Government has signed Reciprocal Health Care Agreements (RHCA) with the governments of the United Kingdom, Sweden, the Netherlands, Belgium, Finland, Norway, Slovenia, Malta, Italy, Republic of Ireland and New Zealand."

So, in Australia, if Dave is a citizen or permanent resident with absolutely no private health insurance, he can go to see a doctor and it will cost him around $70 each visit, and about half of that will be paid back to him by Medicare. And if he has to be hospitalised with an illness, Medicare will cover the full cost and he won't have to pay a cent.

So from what I can understand, in the States, if you don't have private health insurance, you'd be liable to pay in full the costs of visiting a doctor and going to the hospital, is that right? If so ... wow. We clearly have a really good system here, one that I take for granted.

[Dark Sage]

If we can be required by law to buy auto insurance, why not health insurance?

I keep asking that question, and no-one ever gives me a straight answer.

[Jeff]

If you can't afford car insurance or otherwise don't want to pay for it, don't drive a car. Use public transportation instead.

If you can't afford health insurance or don't want to pay for it ... don't live?

[Gavin Luper]

If we can be required by law to buy auto insurance, why not health insurance?

I keep asking that question, and no-one ever gives me a straight answer.

I dunno ... I guess because buying a car is a choice, and one that usually means you have a quid or two. Car ownership isn't universal or inescapable. Despite it's necessity for so many things - going to work, school, etc. - it ultimately is a luxury in that you could live without it.

People's health, on the other hand, is a universal, inescapable issue. I can avoid having car problems by not having a car; I can't avoid having health problems by not having health (yes, I'm aware of how weird that sentence sounds). Whether rich or poor, people's health is a fundamental aspect of life that they cannot opt into or out of. Hence, it deserves to be fundamentally subsidised, in my view.

EDIT: Jeff, your timing is impeccable.

[Dark Sage]

You're breaking my heart.

Ten years ago, I got hit by a car and broke both my legs. The driver had no insurance, and it caused me and my family a whole lot of trouble because of it. My family health insurance, but we still had to pay extra because this idiot had none.

He was breaking the law, and I got a hassle because of it.

I repeat: If we can be required by law to buy auto insurance, why not health insurance? There should be no reason why people who do buy health insurance should have to pay the price because of uninsured people who don't.

Heck, here's an idea for a health plan that I'm sure the GOP would agree to: Make it optional. But if you chose to reject it, and you get sick or injured, you're on your own. That means that even if you crawl into the emergency room bleeding with both your legs broken, if you have no insurance, too bad.

That would solve a whole lot of problems.

[Gavin Luper]

You're breaking my heart.

Ten years ago, I got hit by a car and broke both my legs. The driver had no insurance, and it caused me and my family a whole lot of trouble because of it. My family health insurance, but we still had to pay extra because this idiot had none.

He was breaking the law, and I got a hassle because of it.

I repeat: If we can be required by law to buy auto insurance, why not health insurance? There should be no reason why people who do buy health insurance should have to pay the price because of uninsured people who don't.

Heck, here's an idea for a health plan that I'm sure the GOP would agree to: Make it optional. But if you chose to reject it, and you get sick or injured, you're on your own. That means that even if you crawl into the emergency room bleeding with both your legs broken, if you have no insurance, too bad.

That would solve a whole lot of problems.

Sorry to hear about what happened to you in the past, mate - that sucks.

Both Jeff and I have offered an answer to that question, though. That is, not all people can afford private health insurance, and health is hardly a luxury that can be done without.

As per the Australian Medicare system, we pay a Medicare levy as part of our taxation system that funds this universal health care for all Australians. It's hardly a contentious issue: I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about paying that levy - the benefits of universal health care far outweigh a small tax, IMHO. And if you have Private Health Insurance, there is a minimum rebate of 30% paid back to you by the Government. That is, for each dollar you contribute to your private health insurance premium, the Government will give you back at least 30 cents.

I think this system is pretty fair and I rarely, if ever, hear complaints about it.

[Asilynne]

Sorry to hear about what happened to you in the past, mate - that sucks.

Both Jeff and I have offered an answer to that question, though. That is, not all people can afford private health insurance, and health is hardly a luxury that can be done without.

As per the Australian Medicare system, we pay a Medicare levy as part of our taxation system that funds this universal health care for all Australians. It's hardly a contentious issue: I don't think I've ever heard anyone complain about paying that levy - the benefits of universal health care far outweigh a small tax, IMHO. And if you have Private Health Insurance, there is a minimum rebate of 30% paid back to you by the Government. That is, for each dollar you contribute to your private health insurance premium, the Government will give you back at least 30 cents.

I think this system is pretty fair and I rarely, if ever, hear complaints about it.

If America was proposing that, I'd be all for it, but I don't like being told I have to buy something I can't afford, and if I don't I get fined. If I can't afford the insurance how can I afford the fine?

Fortunately my job is going to give me health insurance after my 90 days so I can finally see a doctor after more than 10 years without lol

[Dark Sage]

Let's change the subject.

I discovered something interesting about the key point of Cain's plan: his 9-9-9 plan, which is a flat tax system.

I got this information from my dad, who, as you know, is a retired professor of political science.

Here are the countries that have a flat tax system:

Bosnia-Herzogovina, Bulgaria, Albania, the Czech Republic, Estonia, Georgia, Guernsey, Hungary, Kazakhstan, Iraq, Jersey, Kyrgyzstan, Latvia, Lithuania, Macedonia, Mongolia, Montenegro, Mauritius, Romania, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, and Ukraine.

See a common thread? Most of them are former eastern bloc countries in which communism failed. The flat tax system is the legacy of these failed communist states. The rest of the countries on the list aren't exactly economic powerhouses.

Communist countries had flat tax systems because the communist ideal was that everybody should be comfortable with their place in the economy; since everything was theoretically provided by the government, pulling oneself up by one's bootstraps was frowned upon. You implement a flat tax when you want to keep the poor where they are.

So, Cain wants to increase the size of the federal government by federalizing all tax collection, and also wants to institute a Communist-style tax system.

I'm not sure if that's what he wants... But that's what he'll get if his 9-9-9 plan ever becomes a reality.

[Roy Karrde]

See a common thread? Most of them are former eastern bloc countries in which communism failed. The flat tax system is the legacy of these failed communist states. The rest of the countries on the list aren't exactly economic powerhouses.

Legacy? Here is a quote from Business Weekly

But it has gotten its first real road test in the former Soviet bloc, where at least eight countries, from minuscule Estonia to giant Russia, have enacted flat taxes since the mid-1990s.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine...9/b3952079.htm

Want to know what they were doing in the mid 1990s? They were trying to adopt a capitalist system and work on fixing their ailing economy. A flat tax provided a incentive to help do that. Mind you Russia did not even enact it UNTIL 2001.

[Mewtwo-D2]

If we can be required by law to buy auto insurance, why not health insurance?

I keep asking that question, and no-one ever gives me a straight answer.

Because health insurance is personal, auto insurance is not. Auto insurance is not to pay you in case something breaks - it's in case you hit someone else. Also, the government pays to maintain the roads and licenses people to drive on them. Protection for other drivers can be considered a fee for using the government-built roads. However, forcing people to buy anything is unconstitutional, good point.

Health insurance, on the other hand, has little to do with other people. The government does not own my body, nor does it grant me a license to live. Also, because of government meddling, I can't afford health insurance on my own. So you tell me - if the government can not mandate that I buy insurance for my non-existent boat because I might someday get one, why must I pay for an insurance policy that covers obstetrics, alternative medicine like acupuncture and naturopathy, and prostate exams? Why can't I be allowed to buy only, say, accident coverage and gynecological care?

[Roy Karrde]

Specifically and I could be wrong I think Dark Sage is asking why we are forced to buy Auto Insurance but Obamacare mandate is unconstitutional.

The truth is, is that the Federal Government does not actually force people to buy auto insurance. That is a power reserved to the state, and one state, New Hampshire does not actually force people to buy auto insurance.

Now just as say Massachusetts can have a Health Insurance mandate, states can also not have one. It however is unconstitutional for Congress to force people to buy something be it auto insurance or health care.

And of course just as others have noted if you dont want to buy auto insurance you don't have to buy a car.