Do you believe in Evolution?

[youdontknowme]

I don't believe in macro-evolution, but I do believe in micro (ie. adaptation)
Nobody can prove or disprove evolution, like the existence of God; it's taken by faith.

[Negrek]

I don't believe in macro-evolution, but I do believe in micro (ie. adaptation)
Nobody can prove or disprove evolution, like the existence of God; it's taken by faith.

Yes you can. How else did some microbes become resistant to antibiotics? There was that whole thing with the moths and the sooty trees and them changing colors to remain camouflaged. And, in controlled laboratory settings, you can generate evolution though selective breeding of fast-reproducing organisms, such as bacteria or flies. Stuff evolves.

I've heard people say how they believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution before, but I've never understood what they consider to be the difference or what the argument is there. Care to enlighten me?

Indeed, science is a faith like religion, but one of a different nature--you can go on believing that the earth is flat all you like, but we have very conclusive evidence to prove otherwise. The existence of a God(s), by the very nature of the proposal, cannot be proven, and therefore requires a different kind of faith entirely.

[mr_pikachu]

1. If I'm not mistaken, micro-evolution is the adaptation of certain animals to various situations - you could compare it to Pokemon evolution, really. Macro-evolution is the gradual change of a species over an exceedingly long period of time into a different species.

2. "The earth is not flat" is generally taken as a scientific axiom now because it is readily observable. This is different from a theory. Human evolution is more difficult than an axiom, as we cannot go a few dozens years back in time to observe the changes.

[youdontknowme]

Yes you can. How else did some microbes become resistant to antibiotics? There was that whole thing with the moths and the sooty trees and them changing colors to remain camouflaged. And, in controlled laboratory settings, you can generate evolution though selective breeding of fast-reproducing organisms, such as bacteria or flies. Stuff evolves.

Like I said, I believe in micro, not macro.
I think some people are getting confused with what I'm saying...
When I said macro, I meant primates to humans. Micro being adaptations ie. what Negrek said about the moths.

When I said that evolution cannot be proven or disproved, I was referring to macro (at least, in my terms). Again, there's no undeniable evidence that proves the existence of such evolution.
If some day evolution can be proven like simple arithmetic (2+2=4), then I'll be damned.

[DarkTemplarZero]

So you say you believe that you believe in minor changes but not major ones? Don't you think that small adaptations bit by bit over millions of years can result in a radically different species? Think about what you're saying for a bit. Primates that were able to see over the tall grass in Africa prospered because they could find food more easily, so primates that could stand on their hind legs more readily were more likely to survive, so after some time a group of primates only stood on their hind legs, etc.


^ Evolution.


Baleen Whale skeleton. Notice it has hind legs (marked by C) ? Vestigial remnants of its terrestrial ancestors.

2+2=4 is not an axiom, it is derived from the assumption that a=a for all values of a, which you can debate philosophically but it's absurd. Evolution is more axiomatic than anything, it's just what's always been observed and there is no conceivable scientifically provable alternate theory, therefore, by Sherlock Holmes' principle, it must be the truth. Since you seem to be so against evolution, youdontknowme, tell me what you think? What logical and scientifically provable alternate theory to evolution do you have?

[Blademaster]

What logical and scientifically provable alternate theory to evolution do you have?

Magic.

What? Not logical enough?

(casts a spell that makes everyone believe magic is logical)

See?

[Gavin Luper]

Magic.

What? Not logical enough?

(casts a spell that makes everyone believe magic is logical)

See?

Man, I don't think I could've said that better myself.

You really enjoy these hey Blade?

Anyway, I think evolution is a clever theory and probable. In fact, it's probably right. I'm religious, not extremely so, I just think Genesis was symbolic rather than literal. Works for me at this stage. Hell, none of us are ever really going to know the truth anyway, it all comes down to what you believe in.

[Arnen]

It seems to me that people who don't believe in the whole ape-to-man thing just get offended by the idea that we probably evolved from animals that throw their own poo, and are too immature to admit it and instead turn to their religion for an excuse.

[Blademaster]

Man, I don't think I could've said that better myself.

You really enjoy these hey Blade?

Debates are too serious - I like to add some humor to the mix. It does the body good.

[Mew Master]

Eh, I'm going to throw my two cents in here because as a Scientist, I actually see change evolution in action, and I just got done taking my Zoology Final.

First off, I'm a Paleontologist, so I spend a fair ammount of time looking at different species of dinosaurs and birds looking for a connection.

Second off, and the most important. Evolution is not a belief. It is a Scientific theory that can be argued either to be incredibly false, or very accurate. Just as you can argue that science and faith bang off each other like oil and water, there are some who think the two can co-exsist. I think they can, but then again, what do I know? I'm agnostic.

Well, let's look at the main points of evolution.

1. Evolution is a change in a population over an expanse of time.

Whether you want to accpet this or not, there is evidence for changes within a population. Evolution is scrutinized because we can't see the differences within out own generation. For specific changes to be taken place we need at least three successive generations to see a change. However, we can see a few trends.

Human beings have increased in height from the late 1800's the average height increased by 4-6 inches at best. We also have begun to live longer, as a result of both medicine and our own resistances to natural viruses and ailments. However, the bad part of this is that there is also an increased rate of death by corinary and cancer-related ailments. That can be partially explained by behavior and habit, but behavior is part of the driving force behind evolution.

The other fact brought up is that viruses, bacteria, and insects are becoming resistant to everything we throw at them. This happens when an exsesive use of an anti-biotic and insecticie kills all but a few of the population. That population, that survived the original onslought, is able to reproduce with more of those who are resistant. And the cycle continues with many more resistant organisms surviving and multiplying.

This also ties into adaptive radiation, where one species eventually changes and evolves into several different species with a common ancestor. This is why Mammals, Reptiles, Birds, and Fish are tied to the first few multi-celled organisms.

2. Change is bound to happen in a population.

We may be only 99% different from the rest of the world's species however there is that 1% difference that accounts for variation.

A population is each genetically different. When they mate, the genetic variations increase drastically (X^2). Which allows for different genetic combinations. Those combinations that survive pass on those genes to the next generation and so on...

3. Organisms in a population are not the same

See previous point.

4. Variation is repeatable across Generations.

As I stated earlier, variation across time is seen through bacteria (because they can reproduce quickly and have shorter life-spans), or through statistics (human height, as mentioned earlier). And these variations continue on as the organisms live, grow, and reproduce.

5. More offspring = More survive and reproduce

Different species have different ways of surviving. Cats have litters of kittens between 3-7. Humans have young that number anywhere from 1-7, but more often it's just one. This has to do with the survivability of the species. Cats have some natural predators that threaten their young, so they have large batches to ensure that they survive. Humans on the other hand have no natural predators (other than ourselves, you can argue either way), and thus have far fewer young with a longer gestation period (two months in a cat vs 9 months in a human). Other species, however, are fully able to stand the second they're out of the womb (antelope)

I'll end with a few final notes.

When you look at the different taxinomic classifications of animals, you can see change across them that mimics change over time.

From "Protozoa" -> Porifera -> Cnideria -> Platyhelminthes -> Nematodes -> Mollusca -> Annelids -> Arthorpoda -> Echinodermata -> Chordata. The addaptive radiology branches out into the living organisms of the animal kingdom.

Now, I am a supporter of Evolution. I am also respectful of other people's beliefs and I don't try to force my ideals on someone else. Just so long as they don't force theirs on me.

Okay... there's my..... *counts fingers* Um.... 34 cents worth. ^^U

[Jay Umbreon]

im a believer =]
though it would be nice to believe that lots of virgins are waiting in heaven for me ^_^ ...but still...
nah, im with darwin.
religion gives people hope for a life after death
it gives people meaning where there's uncertainty
again, hope when there's fear
but the cold truth, is most probably evolution
born, die, that's it.