Saddam sentenced to hang for war crimes

[mr_pikachu]

And while Saddam is no hero, don't forget that he was supported by the United States because he wasn't a fanatical Muslim before the Gulf War.

I shall conveniently ignore the rest of your post so that I may easily make this point: Saddam wasn't supported by the U.S. during the Gulf War because he was a different person then. He was supported by the U.S. during the Gulf War because we were trying to pick the lesser of two evils; neither choice was anywhere near what you would call "good," but Saddam was deemed a little more likely to join forces with us.

Now I will run away as quickly as I can in order to avoid the inevitable flames to come. Adios!

[Roy Karrde]

You may see no change in Iraq in it's liberation DTZ, but you are thinking in the short term. Before the US came in Iraq had no future except for death and war. Once Saddam died his brothers would take over, both just as or more ruthless than their father. And what was left under Saddam's rule? He already expressed interest in rebuilding his Bio program once the UN turned a blind eye. He was already trying to get Yellow Cake Uranium to make Nukes. He was already supporting Al Qaeda, and Palestinian terrorism. Under Saddam Iraq had no future at all except for them being lab rats for Saddam's next weapon's program.

While there is Secterian violance happening now, it wont remain that way forever. Once we stop Iran's financing of the extreamists, and stop Al Qaeda, the violance will pretty much be over with. What is left can be controlled by Iraq's own Military and Police Force and wont be anything stronger than say normal Gang violance. Iraq has a future now, something more than death and destruction, something more than being lab rats for Saddam. THAT is what has changed.

Also you say there were Public Mournings for Saddam. There were Public Mournings for Hitler too, does that negate what all he did? Also stop the flameing, everyone. Or else really this topic will be closed and people will get Infractions.

[Mewtwo-D2]

Still, killing a person is wrong regardless of the scenario, and enjoying somebody's death is just sick, which is why I pity your parents for giving birth to such a demonic little bastard.

So, let's say a hulking man armed with a knife is coming at me in a dark alley, his pants unzipped. If I have a gun, and I kill this person who is obviously intending to rape me, I'm wrong?

Let's say I find someone who raped my sister, or killed someone who was in the act of raping my sister. How about someone who had just shot my father? Would I be demonic for protecting myself and my loved ones, and for being glad I had removed a predator from this world?

Is it morally superior to be a victim? And you still haven't answered my question about Agamemnon.

[Master Rudy]

So, let's say a hulking man armed with a knife is coming at me in a dark alley, his pants unzipped. If I have a gun, and I kill this person who is obviously intending to rape me, I'm wrong?

Let's say I find someone who raped my sister, or killed someone who was in the act of raping my sister. How about someone who had just shot my father? Would I be demonic for protecting myself and my loved ones, and for being glad I had removed a predator from this world?

Is it morally superior to be a victim? And you still haven't answered my question about Agamemnon.

I think it's safe to say you aren't getting an answer M2. It's what Zero does.....when he can't argue something he just won't say anything.

Granted Iraq is still a hotspot now as far as attacks and terrorist activity goes but in due time that country is going to be so much better off with no Saddam. Who knows? Might even become a tourist destination one day once the country itself is in better shape (not to mention the Middle East as a whole)

[DarkTemplarZero]

Right, flaming is bad, let's all be happy with some Russian Reversals!

In America, you burn CD's, in Soviet Russia, CD burns YOU!!

In America, DarkTemplarZero owns you. In Soviet Russia, DarkTemplarZero still owns YOU!!

In Soviet Russia, what Rudy says makes sense to YOU!!

Sorry, I couldn't resist hahah. Sorry Rudy, you know I didn't mean it. I love you man. Give me a hug. You and I should be like this:
not like this: Anyways.

Rudy: Hahah I love your point about tourism in Iraq. Iraqi Kurdistan is trying to increase it's tourism revenue by advertising on TV, saying that they're "The other Iraq" and that fewer than 200 coalition troops are station there. It's hysterical. And in due time I doubt Iraq will settle down into a nice orderly nation, just look at what happened the last time a superpower tried to take over a middle-eastern country, that superpower no longer exists, and Afghanistan was far worse off afterward.

Mewtwo-D2: To answer all your questions, yes. Yes you are wrong to kill someone, yes you are wrong to take pleasure from the malice in your heart as you kill someone, and yes it is morally superior to be a victim. Something tells me that you're a Christian, think about your home boy Jesus Christ and then answer those questions for yourself.

Roy: "Once" we stop Al Qaeda and "once" we get Iran to cooperate. You're assuming quite a bit there. It's like Andrew Wiles' first failed proof of Fermat's Last Theorem, you assume too much. And assuming that, you're still left with a brutally divided Iraq, lots of people are pissed off, even without Iranian support you think they'll just give up? Sure. Violence is exponential, the more violence there is the more it escalates, people will keep blowing things up and maiming each other in the streets with whatever they have.

[Roy Karrde]

* Squezes into the room with the over sized egos *

Now that, I am actually in the room I want to remind you DTZ that the last time a Superpower tried to take over a middle eastern country as you so put it, it was the United States and other Forces entering and taking over Afghanistan. You may have gotten the country right, but I doubt you were aiming for that war. And that's okay we all make mistakes. I should also remind you that Afghanistan is doing relatively well now, the Taliban is a non issue now, Women and Girls are enjoying rights now they never had ( Go watch the movie Osama for reference ). And the country is actually starting to put itself together.

Now for your statement to M2D2, it is not always wrong to kill some one if it is in self defense, I doubt even Jesus who allowed himself to get killed for a cause, would want his followers to stand there and allow themselves to be killed for nothing. And while yes you are wrong to take pleasure in the sight of seeing some one killed, I have a feeling that you yourself watch TV or Movies. Do you morn when the bad guy dies in those movies? Do you morn the deaths the hero causes? Or in some way do you cheer when the Hero beats the Villain? We as a race enjoy seeing the bad guys get justice and die, either in the pretend world of movies, or in the real world.

Now for what you said to me, right now we cannot get Iran to cooperate with the UN, but for Al Qaeda I have a feeling the US Forces are more than up to the challenge of defeating Al Qaeda. If you were to ask the public if we should stay in Iraq for 20 more years, if it would defeat Al Qaeda, you would find people are overwhelmingly in favor of it. Also with those two forces gone you will find that the maimings and blowing things up will dramatically decrese. We have had 9 deaths in New Orleans since the beginning of the year, and countless deaths to gang violance, yet we still find a way to get along. Remove the two main backers and or contributors to the Insurgency, and you remove a good amount of the Insurgency. As for the people getting along, 70% of that country seems to be getting along just fine. All the main action is happening in the two or three big cities. You should take the rest of the country as a example of that these people can get along, you just have to remove the two big influences to the violance.

[Mewtwo-D2]

DTZ, if you know nothing about my religion, keep your mouth shut. Jesus never promoted victimhood. Laying down your life for a cause is way different then being a victim simply for victimhood. The disciples carried swords at Jesus's own insistence. He never advocated just rolling over and taking abuse- turning the other cheek does not mean sacrificing your life needlessly.

If some bastard tries to rape me, he is getting killed. I don't care if I have to shoot him, stab him, strangle him, or stomp on his head until it caves in. I am not going to be a victim of sexual abuse ever again. Do you think the scum will learn something if I penitentially allow myself to be violated? Why should I have to live with having my body befouled? Why should I have to die to prove a point? It is not morally superior to be a victim, and I think you're completely demented to suggest that it is. Let's say my rapist murders me. There goes your 'every life is sacred'. By saying I should let myself be victimized, you are saying that the life of my rapist is more sacred then mine.

[Heald]

The disciples carried swords at Jesus's own insistence.

These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."

"Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.

If you can back up your claim, please do.

On a note about Saddam and his so-called human rights being breached - many people believe - erroneously - that every human being is entitled to human rights. They are not. Rights must be earned. The only exception are those who are unable to earn their rights or have had not enough time to earn their rights, such as the severely disabled and children. Good, hardworking people deserve rights. Evil, malicious people who perform acts of evil against other human beings have invalidated their human rights.

In reference to Saddam, he was clearly guilty and everyone just wasted a lot of time and money in a pointless trial that, whether it was fair or not, gave the result everyone was expecting. Whoever the troops were who captured him in the first place should have treated him like every other dangerous enemy and shot him in his little hole. To sympathise with him is to give him what he wants. We're lucky to live in a society where we can insult his executors and call foul when we know nothing of the pain they went through and are still going through as a result of the fallout of Saddam's regime, the war and his execution. He's dead - end of discussion. Now lets concentrate on getting out of this complete mess of a war and get back to spending money on useful matters instead of wasting lives and money in this fiasco.

[TKnHappyNess]

If some bastard tries to rape me, he is getting killed. I don't care if I have to shoot him, stab him, strangle him, or stomp on his head until it caves in. I am not going to be a victim of sexual abuse ever again. Do you think the scum will learn something if I penitentially allow myself to be violated? Why should I have to live with having my body befouled? Why should I have to die to prove a point? It is not morally superior to be a victim, and I think you're completely demented to suggest that it is. Let's say my rapist murders me. There goes your 'every life is sacred'. By saying I should let myself be victimized, you are saying that the life of my rapist is more sacred then mine.

What if he's got a weapon? He could kill you when he's done so you won't call the cops. If any criminal tells you to do something or they'll kill you, don't bother doing it, because even if you do what they want, there's no guarantee they'll let you live because you can testify against them should they get caught. They don't want to leave any victim or witnesses alive.

[Mewtwo-D2]

For Heald: Luke 22:35-38
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Swords for self-defense. Meaningless sacrifice of self is not at all advocated by Christianity.


And TKnHappyNess, that's the point. I'm saying I have a right to protect my body and my life. DTZ is saying that I do not have that right. He is saying that it is better for me to allow myself to be raped and murdered than to fight back and potentially kill my attacker. He is saying that the life, comfort, and well-being of a rapist is more important than my own.

[Heald]

For Heald: Luke 22:35-38
35 And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing.
36 Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
38 And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

Swords for self-defense. Meaningless sacrifice of self is not at all advocated by Christianity.

It is generally accepted that Luke was written decades after the events it tells, and the fact that the passage you have quoted appears nowhere else in any of the other Gospels, it is unlikely Jesus actually said this, and it is probably more likely Luke put it in to appeal to his mainly Greek and non-Jewish audience, whose societies had strong militaristic bases.

That said, no, meaningless sacrifice is not at all advocated by Christianity.

[DarkTemplarZero]

"If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do." - Exodus 21:7

"So God said to Noah, 'I am going to put an end to all people, for the earth is filled with violence because of them. I am surely going to destroy both them and the earth.'" - Genesis 6:13

God has a great and noble history of being self-contradictory, hypocritical, etc. so therefore, if you choose to believe in Christian theology you have to pick and choose what you interpret as the true word of God, otherwise you'd shoot yourself in the face trying to be both violent and peaceful, loving your family and selling your daughter into prostitution, etc. However, when choosing between Luke's miltarism and Matthew's cheesey idealism I think I'll take the latter. I much prefer sappy idealism myself. And besides, Mewtwo, I think you're missing the big picture, didn't Jesus voluntarily sacrifice himself to a horrific death? I think that qualifies as rolling over and taking abuse.

And Mewtwo, stop skewing what I have to say. I'm saying you don't have the right to kill someone in anger by pouding their head in like some PMS-y Atilla the Hun bitch. Honestly, I've never met anybody more murderous than you are, where you people get so much murderous hatred I have no idea. Life is good, stop fantasizing about killing each other.

[Roy Karrde]

The first one I believe was a law at the time from the state, not God's word.

The second one comes from the Old Testiment in which God was a vengeful one, that is why most Christian Churchs now days focus on the New Testiment and not the Old one. As for what you are saying I really believe you are the one that isn't getting it. For one Jesus rolled over and took it for the greater good, becuase he knew his death would save the souls of all, and that he would go on to Heaven.

Could you say the same for a Rape Victum? How many souls does a woman getting raped save? Should a woman who is about to get violated, and has a gun in her purse, just say "Oh hell, I shouldn't bother shooting him, it would be bad, rather I will let him forcibly violate me and possibly kill me?" I want your answer on this.

How about if I were to enter your house? Tie up your family and prepare to shoot them one by one while you are hiding in the next room. Would you not help the helpless? Would you sit in your room and listen to the agonizing cries of your family members as they are slaughtered? Or would you look for a weapon to go and beat my scull in to save your family members?

Let me help you on this one, one answer, the correct one which would destroy your argument and make you a murderous hatred human being is the right one, and it also is the reasonable one. The wrong one which would support your argument, and would suggest that you would sacrafice anyone and anything so that in your heart you can believe you are right, and lets call it the "Saddam Hussain Answer". Would suggest that you should rethink what is valuable in life.

[Mewtwo-D2]

And Mewtwo, stop skewing what I have to say. I'm saying you don't have the right to kill someone in anger by pouding their head in like some PMS-y Atilla the Hun bitch. Honestly, I've never met anybody more murderous than you are, where you people get so much murderous hatred I have no idea. Life is good, stop fantasizing about killing each other.

I have been a victim of sexual abuse, thank you very much. Unless you went for over a year receiving rape threats on a daily basis, then you have no right to tell me that I can't be angry about it. I would like to hurt the people that hurt me. I know a very wonderful woman, who's just like a sister to me, who was molested at ages 3, 5, 10, and raped at 13. I would like to kill the people who hurt her. I would very much like to see the people who hurt her suffer and die- they deserve it.

In fact, I know several women who have been molested or raped. If someone EVER threatens a woman with sexual violence in my presence, I don't care if they haul me off to prison- I am killing the son of a bitch that does it.

And you know what? I let myself be victimized. When my classmates were telling me that they were going to hold me down on the bus and rape me, when they shouted that if they found me alone in the hallway, they were going to gang-bang me, when they'd slip me notes in class ordering me to get down on my knees and blow them beneath the desk, I just sat there and cried. I never reported any of them. I became suicidally depressed and severely bulimic. I slept 16-20 hours a day. And you know what I realized? I could continue being a victim and wallowing in my fear and self-pity, or I could stop being a victim and simply become a survivor.

I don't care if your demented, twisted, and sick views make you think I'm 'a PMS-y Atilla the Hun bitch'. I refuse to be a victim, and I refuse to allow others to be victimized if I can help it.

[DarkTemplarZero]

What I think is most important in life, other than perhaps good food of course , is never compromising your principles. As a fellow Star Trek fan Roy, you should be well versed in never compromising your principles, despite the fact that you're not much of a fan of Voyager. And as for the law argument, isn't the Bible God's word? So therefore God believes in selling your daughters into prostitution? Well, like I said before, religion's all about the interpretation, hence why no Christian or Muslim sect can agree with any other one.

And M2, I see your point. You've had traumatic experiences and you want revenge. Quite human. To err is human, to forgive, divine. While I'm not saying that you should forgive sexual assault, I'm saying that you should stop fantasizing about killing people, really, life is too short to waste with dreams like that. Now I'm sorry if you've become so much like that which you despise the most that you would take pleasure in taking a life. "All who draw the sword will die by the sword", violence is exponential, yet more proof.

[Roy Karrde]

To help clarify things, yes the Bible is God's world but that does not mean that it cannot show what life was like back then, and or show events that show how bad society was in contrast to God and Jesus' teachings. Showing something and saying God approved of it are two different things. As for the principles thing, I reply with the argument that principles can be bent and broken in even the most extreme circumstances. If not than I pity the person who lays their life or protection in your hands.

[Mewtwo-D2]

And M2, I see your point. You've had traumatic experiences and you want revenge. Quite human. To err is human, to forgive, divine. While I'm not saying that you should forgive sexual assault, I'm saying that you should stop fantasizing about killing people, really, life is too short to waste with dreams like that. Now I'm sorry if you've become so much like that which you despise the most that you would take pleasure in taking a life. "All who draw the sword will die by the sword", violence is exponential, yet more proof.

I fail to see how being prepared for the eventuality of being on the receiving end of sexual assault and dealing with it appropriately is 'fantasizing about killing people'. I don't make it an active part in my life, and I don't know that I would feel anything other than grim satisfaction that one more predator was out of the world if it came down to me killing a sexual predator.

I also fail to see how refusing to be victimized again makes me like the people who made me a victim.

[Roy Karrde]

Since this topic is about Iraq, I figured I would show some of the highlights of the Presidential Address tonight, including some things we have talked about and brought up tonight.

This is a strong commitment. But for it to succeed, our commanders say the Iraqis will need our help. So America will change our strategy to help the Iraqis carry out their campaign to put down sectarian violence – and bring security to the people of Baghdad. This will require increasing American force levels. So I have committed more than 20,000 additional American troops to Iraq. The vast majority of them – five brigades – will be deployed to Baghdad. These troops will work alongside Iraqi units and be embedded in their formations. Our troops will have a well-defined mission: to help Iraqis clear and secure neighborhoods, to help them protect the local population, and to help ensure that the Iraqi forces left behind are capable of providing the security that Baghdad needs.

and

This new strategy will not yield an immediate end to suicide bombings, assassinations, or IED attacks. Our enemies in Iraq will make every effort to ensure that our television screens are filled with images of death and suffering. Yet over time, we can expect to see Iraqi troops chasing down murderers, fewer brazen acts of terror, and growing trust and cooperation from Baghdad’s residents. When this happens, daily life will improve, Iraqis will gain confidence in their leaders, and the government will have the breathing space it needs to make progress in other critical areas. Most of Iraq’s Sunni and Shia want to live together in peace – and reducing the violence in Baghdad will help make reconciliation possible.

Succeeding in Iraq also requires defending its territorial integrity – and stabilizing the region in the face of the extremist challenge. This begins with addressing Iran and Syria. These two regimes are allowing terrorists and insurgents to use their territory to move in and out of Iraq. Iran is providing material support for attacks on American troops. We will disrupt the attacks on our forces. We will interrupt the flow of support from Iran and Syria. And we will seek out and destroy the networks providing advanced weaponry and training to our enemies in Iraq.

[DarkTemplarZero]

*yawn* how many times have we tried to secure Baghdad, and how many times have people like al-Maliki failed miserably to deliver? Stay the course! Never jump the sinking ship!

And as for Syria, ironic how the old Bush backed al-Maliki's Jihad Office in Syria back in the early 90's to fight Saddam's regime. Ironic how we still pay the Syrian government to torture our "terror suspects". I don't think Bush is making his little torture experts in Syria very happy. I perform extraordinary renditions of Lynyrd Skynyrd's Free Bird on Guitar Hero II, President Bush performs extraordinary renditions on innocent people. Just another reason why I pwn the President

[Bulbasaur4]

I'm just sad that it is now official that we're sending even more troops to Iraq. Now more people get to die on a war that is unofficial and of course, impossible to win. Huzzah.

[Mewtwo-D2]

I'm just sad that it is now official that we're sending even more troops to Iraq. Now more people get to die on a war that is unofficial and of course, impossible to win. Huzzah.

Tell me, have you protested the troops in Bosnia?

[Magmar]

DTZ, I can't believe that you find the concept of a rapist getting killed before he gets to sexually, physically and emotionally demolish a woman appalling. I think it's wonderful that M2 has it in her to speak so freely and confidently of her experiences--you go, girl! You let 'em have it!!

As for me being demonic, that implies that I'm possessed. So I'm possessed because I think we're better off with Saddam dead, am I? What does that make you, since you think serial killers who commit crimes against humanities should be allowed to live on the same planet as innocent children? I have a hard time believing anything you say. I guess I should say that no victim mourned Saddam.

Slightly off-topic but somewhat related to Iraq, why is the terror alert level Red in the U.S.??

[Heald]

I read in a British newspaper today that 8 children have died around the globe (the latest was in Morocco) in bizarre hanging reenactments following the coverage and subsequent footage broadcast around the globe of the hanging. I was indifferent about the hanging beforehand, but now I am vehemently against it. By allowing Saddam to hang, it has made children think it is okay to hang people and they have even made a game out of it, trivialising the controversy surrounding the death penalty and killing people in the process. No one can justify the hanging now. Not even Doom music.

[mr_pikachu]

My opinion about the execution itself hasn't changed. But I have changed my view about the security at the event. The cell phone never should've been there.

[Magmar]

Similarly, I noted that many small children at the school I work at would spin around in circles and knock each other down, then play dead. When I asked waht they were playing, they said "Katrina." Kids need to learn that death is not funny or a game from the very start.

[Arnen]

Of course, no one blames the kids' parents for failing to teach their children that death is not a game.

[Magmar]

Parents need to teach their children about death from the start. It's not "innocence" not knowing that death is in the world; it's ignorance. Children who understand death at an earlier age aren't bizarre, depressed, morbid children. Children with exposure to death as something trivial (like those who play violent games) tend to be violent but not withdrawn; they need to realize that their game is not "fun".

(Yes, I've studied educational psychology)

[DarkTemplarZero]

B4: You're hot. And you make a good point. Huzzah.

Hahah so now you are the sole judge of fun Magmar. Because you're a murderous Nazi who has no perspective and hates humanity. I see that. People like you are why we still have war and suffering in this day and age, people like you are the murderers and rapists, the Ahmadinejads and the Bush's, the backward fools who oppose stem cell research because they believe that a clump of cells is more valuable than the lives of thousands who die from Parkinsons and Alzheimers, the psychotic murderers who vehemently support the death penalty in the name of "justice". I am really sick and tired of your evil. If you believe life is a priviledge then you are not only un-American, not only a sick bastard, not only following the same train of thought as Hitler and the Interahamwe, but you are just flat out evil.

[Master Rudy]

Let me make sure I've got this right Zero. Just because some of us feel we have a right to self-defense in regards to the rapist you automaticly try to turn it around and spew out your Micheal Moore logic by claiming we're a bunch of beer drinking, murderous redneck Neo Nazi's? Nothing your saying even seems to make any sense anymore Z. Here's a situation for you in regards to the whole rape/self defense thing. And please excuse my language before we get going.

Your walking home late one night from an AI rally, some kind of Hiliary for prez thing.....
*shudders at the thought*
Anyway as your walking a guy that's 6 foot 5 grabs you and drags you into the alley. There are no witnesses and no one is around to help. He beats you to a pulp and then while your down pulls out a .357 magnium and puts it up to your head. From there he rips off your pants and proceeds to fuck you up the ass. When he's done you've got enough time to see his finger starting to pull the trigger. Granted your welcome to your beliefs. However do you mean to tell me you would stick with them and not fight back at any point despite the fact that he just beat you within an inch of your life, made you his prison bitch and is now about to forcibly remove your brain from your head by putting a hole in your head so large that you'll need to IDed by your fingerprints?

If you answer yes to any of the above in that situation and say you would not fight for your life no matter what then personally I think you trying to win this whole "killing Saddam was WRONG!" debate is going to be the least of your problems in life. If you show people your a doormat they will walk all over you. Just keep those things in mind.

[Arnen]

Hahah so now you are the sole judge of fun Magmar. Because you're a murderous Nazi who has no perspective and hates humanity. I see that. People like you are why we still have war and suffering in this day and age, people like you are the murderers and rapists, the Ahmadinejads and the Bush's, the backward fools who oppose stem cell research because they believe that a clump of cells is more valuable than the lives of thousands who die from Parkinsons and Alzheimers, the psychotic murderers who vehemently support the death penalty in the name of "justice". I am really sick and tired of your evil. If you believe life is a priviledge then you are not only un-American, not only a sick bastard, not only following the same train of thought as Hitler and the Interahamwe, but you are just flat out evil.

I fail to see how teaching children to respect death and not make a game of it makes one "evil".

[Mewtwo-D2]

B4: You're hot. And you make a good point. Huzzah.

Hahah so now you are the sole judge of fun Magmar. Because you're a murderous Nazi who has no perspective and hates humanity. I see that. People like you are why we still have war and suffering in this day and age, people like you are the murderers and rapists, the Ahmadinejads and the Bush's, the backward fools who oppose stem cell research because they believe that a clump of cells is more valuable than the lives of thousands who die from Parkinsons and Alzheimers, the psychotic murderers who vehemently support the death penalty in the name of "justice". I am really sick and tired of your evil. If you believe life is a priviledge then you are not only un-American, not only a sick bastard, not only following the same train of thought as Hitler and the Interahamwe, but you are just flat out evil.

I'm going to address your points one by one, even though you've already shown all of us that you're a demented, attention-whoring liar.

1) "Murderous Nazi". STOP USING TERMS IF YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY MEAN! Quick, tell me three basic beliefs of the Nazi party! If you can't without looking it up, you forfeit the right to ever call anyone a Nazi again. If you can, and you continue to throw the word around, you're just stupid and propogating evil. You are making the word lose meaning and power, so stop tossing it around.

2) "No respect for humanity". You're the one saying victimhood is morally superior, pal. I wouldn't say it's very respectful to humanity to say that the comfort of a rapist and murder is more important than the comfort and life of an innocent person.

3) "People like you". Like what? People who don't believe in just lying there and taking it when people trample all over their rights? People who hate injustice? Not everyone takes being ass-fucked so calmly, and there's no reason why they should.

4) "The murderers and rapists". By your logic, murderers and rapists are superior to the rest of us. You should worship them, as they allow you to pass your sanctimonious morals onto other people. I've been sexually abused. You said I have no right to fight back. Simple logic- if I have no right to fight back against sexual abuse, the abuser's comfort is more valuable than mine.

5) What about the Stalin's, the Pinochet's, the Pol Pot's, the Castro's, the Mao's, the Mussolini's, the Lenin's, the Hitler's? All atheists, buster, so don't even think of pushing the blame onto religion.

6) No religion is against stem cell research, brainiac. What religions (and people well-read in science fiction) oppose is cloning embryos to harvest stem cells. Scientifically, it's completely unnecessary anyway. There are adult stem cells (which they've made significant advances with), and two of the richest sources of immature stem cells (placentas and umbilical cords) are thrown away by the thousands every day. I'm all for research on immature stem cells harvested from placentas and umbilical cords. I think it's downright ghoulish to clone embroyonic humans to get exactly the same thing.

7) Dead criminals have a 0% recidivism rate. Care to argue that point? Should we have left Ted Bundy alive after he admitted to raping and murdering 300 women? You throw around words like "psychotic" and "psychopathic" a lot, but do you know what they mean? Are you aware that some people completely lack the capacity for guilt? Rapists and child molestors have a very high recidivism rate- personally, I think we should kill them all, but would you be pro leaving them in prison for life? Then again, you think people should let themselves be raped, so I would assume the answer is no.

8) Funny, you really seem to be the only "evil" one in the debate. You are the one arguing that my refusal to be sexually victimised again makes me a "PMS-y Attila the Hun bitch". You are the one claiming victimhood is morally superior. Actually, from what I've seen, you are the only one in this debate who is claiming moral superiority in any form. Heald and I are not agreeing on everything in this debate, but you don't see him calling me an "unwashed Hun", do you? He's obviously far more intelligent than you, and has articulated his points well, though he has not insisted that it is "evil" to disagree with him, as you have done.

9) 'Privelege', dear heart. There's no 'd'.

10) People have inborn rights, yes. But when you use your person to deprive another human of their rights, your own rights are forfeit. It is my right to be alive. If someone tries to forcibly remove that right from me, it is my right to protect my rights in whatever manner is accessible to me. If that means killing them, so be it.

11) You are just making yourself look stupider with every post. But keep going- we all need a good laugh now and again.

And Magmar, once I decided that being a victim was pointless, it got easier to talk about. I'm not asking anyone to feel sorry for me, or to respect me based solely on my experience. I believe in telling it like it is- hiding it isn't going to help me heal.

[Weasel Overlord]

Hey hey hey! No-one calls my Barry a murderous Nazi! How the hell do you figure that out, anyway, DTZ? Seriously. Your bloody logic is fecked up man.

So Barry said that he wouldn't let someone rape/murder him? And that obviously makes him a Nazi? Sorry, but something here doesn't quite add up to me. Cos if you ask me, most everyone, IF they were in said situation, would act the same way. Even you, for all your high-flown morals, simply cannot say what you would do in that situation, unless you've actually experienced it for yourself.

Sure, you're a humanist, or whatever it is you like to call yourself. But in calling my friends Nazis, just because they'd do something that any human would do, you yourself are denying them their rights.

And I honestly can't believe the way you throw the word "evil" around. Is it your favourite word? Is anyone who disagrees with you evil? Cos if that's the case, then you might want to be reconsidering exactly who you're calling a Nazi.

[Heald]

Words I no longer want to have to read in this banal topic:

Nazi
Neo
Evil
Moist
Flow
Crevice
Hitler
American
Un-American
Nader
For
President

Also, I am retracting some unnecessary previous comments concerning supporters of the death penalty.