Obama sucks.

[kazr]

You know what the stupid funny thing is? The Republican Party's values were the Democratic's and vice-versa. Over the past couple years or so their values were reversed or something along those lines, somehow, and they were supposed to reverse back right around when Clinton was leaving office. However, thanks to Bush the second being elected, it's gonna take quite a while for that to happen because of his status of why he was elected. So in other words, all that is happening to the U.S. right now is W. Bush's fault.

what the hell is this

page 2 snipe

"Do not underestimate Palin" is a retarded talking point and maybe if the media repeats it ad nauseum then it could come true, I guess? I am underestimating her because all her opponents would have to do is play sound bites of her speaking in her run as McCain's VP to kick her stupid ass right to the curb. She has a fringe, albeit hardcore following but I pray for not just my country but the rest of the world that not enough people could possibly vote in this walking monstrosity as president.

edit: "I can see russia from my house"

[Roy Karrde]

You know what the stupid funny thing is? The Republican Party's values were the Democratic's and vice-versa. Over the past couple years or so their values were reversed or something along those lines, somehow, and they were supposed to reverse back right around when Clinton was leaving office. However, thanks to Bush the second being elected, it's gonna take quite a while for that to happen because of his status of why he was elected. So in other words, all that is happening to the U.S. right now is W. Bush's fault.

Again very simplistic to blame everything on Bush, alot of what is currently happening in the US, atleast economically, the Bush Administration was warning against. That isn't to say Republicans are not partially to blame for what happened, but it is not all Bush's fault. That being said some of the values did switch between the parties. Bush ran against Clinton's nation building efforts of the 90s, promising he wasn't going to nation build. 8 years later we have Iraq and Afghanistan, with the Democrats going after such nation building efforts.

[mr_pikachu]

Again very simplistic to blame everything on Bush, alot of what is currently happening in the US, atleast economically, the Bush Administration was warning against. That being said some of the values did switch between the parties. Bush ran against Clinton's nation building efforts of the 90s, promising he wasn't going to nation build. 8 years later we have Iraq and Afghanistan, with the Democrats going after such nation building efforts.

Uh. I wouldn't necessarily call that "switching policies." That's just the typical campaign promise-breaking. Granted, the circumstances were a little extreme... but when in the last two decades has there not been some extreme element? Long story short, don't make a promise if you're not going to keep it.

[Roy Karrde]

Uh. I wouldn't necessarily call that "switching policies." That's just the typical campaign promise-breaking. Granted, the circumstances were a little extreme... but when in the last two decades has there not been some extreme element? Long story short, don't make a promise if you're not going to keep it.

Gotta say between at least the last 4 Presidents that seems to be a recurring theme. Making substantial promises that they knew they could not keep, or were unable to keep due to events outside of their control.

[kazr]

Gotta say between at least the last 4 Presidents that seems to be a recurring theme. Making substantial promises that they knew they could not keep, or were unable to keep due to events outside of their control.

This is the history of democracy since its inception.

[Roy Karrde]

This is the history of democracy since its inception.

No doubt, but it has played heavily over the last four years. Bush Sr's No New Taxes pledge, Clinton lying under oath ( Yeah I had to stretch for that one ), W Bush's Nation Building Pledge, and of course Obama's C Span Pledge.

Then again it probably helps that as with increased media over the last few years, its easier to go back instantly to clips of candidates making promises. Such as Obama's C Span pledge.

[kazr]

Well it's been fun Roy, but I'm going to take a shower and maybe bake those brownies.

*does a kick flip over ur headz and skates out of dis thread*

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Health insurance is awesome

[Master Rudy]

Well it's been fun Roy, but I'm going to take a shower and maybe bake those brownies. royally getting my ass kicked in this debate since I don't seem to know what I'm talking about. I'ma leave now......

*does a kick flip over ur headz and skates out of dis thread*

Fixed that for you Kazr...... ^_~
Oh and I seriously hope you weren't trying to pass "I can see Russia from my house" as an actual Palin quote. You do know it came from that turd Tina Fey in an SNL skit right?
To shift the focus back to our fearless leader I have this to ask of his supporters: name one thing that Obama has done since taking office that has truely made a change or worked towards helping this country. Go ahead......I'll wait......

[kazr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXL86v8NoGk

You would need some powerful eyes to see Russia from Alaska, and how being able to see Russia has anything to do with foreign policy is beyond me.

Congratulations Rudy. When you're ready to roll with the big boys come back to this thread, until then keep the bench warm.

^_~

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

My spidersense detects friendship.

[Master Rudy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXL86v8NoGk

You would need some powerful eyes to see Russia from Alaska, and how being able to see Russia has anything to do with foreign policy is beyond me.

Congratulations Rudy. When you're ready to roll with the big boys come back to this thread, until then keep the bench warm.

^_~

Keep the bench warm? You may have to dig for a little while but I'm not afraid to jump into these kinds of debates. I just usually prefer to stay out of them since trying to convince an opposing political party that their viewpoint is wrong is about as easy as trying to stop a speeding train with your bare hands.

In any case I'd be more than happy to argue with you if you could tell me what the fuck is in that video. I've only got high speed access about once a week so right now You Tube is a no go for me. I'm sure I could see the first 20-30 seconds or so if you want to give my dial up a few hours but I don't know how my parents would like that considering that they wouldn't be able to use the phone :-/

[shazza]

The video only goes for 12 seconds.

P.S: You're a fucking faggot, dude.

[Roy Karrde]

You would need some powerful eyes to see Russia from Alaska,

There are areas of Alaska that are close enough to Russia that you can see the Russian Coast Line, which was Palin's point.

and how being able to see Russia has anything to do with foreign policy is beyond me.

You need to remember two things, both of which I doubt you do

A: Russia had just invaded Georgia when that interview happened, we were at heightened tensions with Russia over that event

B: Russian bombers and jets have over the past decade threatened US Airspace by performing aerial exercises very close to Alaska and American Ships in the vicinity. Her point, is that if Russia were to attack, Alaska would be first, and that is true. Even on 9/11 we were performing war games close to Russia in response to their own war games they had performed close to Alaska just a few months before.

"Do not underestimate Palin" is a retarded talking point and maybe if the media repeats it ad nauseum then it could come true, I guess?

Actually it was a warning given to the Obama Camp by Palin's former opponent for the Governor's seat.

I am underestimating her because all her opponents would have to do is play sound bites of her speaking in her run as McCain's VP to kick her stupid ass right to the curb.

And they would lose the election if they pulled off such a retarded tactic.

She has a fringe, albeit hardcore following but I pray for not just my country but the rest of the world that not enough people could possibly vote in this walking monstrosity as president.

Yeah well I felt the same way about Barack Obama and yet he won, so at this point, she is a massive step up from the current administration.

[Heald]

Yeah, this is exactly what I wanted to wake up to.

Roy, don't say 'this debate doesn't belong in this thread' and then continue debating it. I could easily refute and argue against some of your opinions you've put in this thread but it isn't the right thread. Be the bigger man and take your own advice.

Otherwise, I feel this thread is accelerating towards something I'd expect to see in Mt. Moon. I like a shitstorm as much as the next asshole, but I'm a mod, and therefore have to keep the peace. If you want to scream and swear at each other, take it to Mt. Moon. If, God forbid, any of you have anything intelligent to add to the discussion, then by all means, post it.

Anyway, for the benefit of Rudy: the video is of real Palin (not Tina Fey) saying that she can see Russia from Alaska in response to a question asking her depth into Russia's politics and actions. So yeah, she's an idiot. I'll underestimate her all I want, thank you very much, although I also know that roughly half of the USA is also stupid enough to vote for her.

[Roy Karrde]

Yeah, this is exactly what I wanted to wake up to.

Roy, don't say 'this debate doesn't belong in this thread' and then continue debating it. I could easily refute and argue against some of your opinions you've put in this thread but it isn't the right thread. Be the bigger man and take your own advice.

Otherwise, I feel this thread is accelerating towards something I'd expect to see in Mt. Moon. I like a shitstorm as much as the next asshole, but I'm a mod, and therefore have to keep the peace. If you want to scream and swear at each other, take it to Mt. Moon. If, God forbid, any of you have anything intelligent to add to the discussion, then by all means, post it.

That is very true, I'll re frame from Health Care from now on.

Anyway, for the benefit of Rudy: the video is of real Palin (not Tina Fey) saying that she can see Russia from Alaska in response to a question asking her depth into Russia's politics and actions. So yeah, she's an idiot.

No where did I see her say "I can see Russia from Alaska" she said and I quote "They are our neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land, here in Alaska" which is true, and if say Mexico was acting up and invading countries, and Rick Perry was running for President or Vice President I would expect him to bring up Mexico's proximity to Texas as one of the main reasons he has more political experience and knowledge of Mexico than his opponent.

[Heald]

No where did I see her say "I can see Russia from Alaska" she said and I quote "They are our neighbors, and you can actually see Russia from land, here in Alaska" which is true, and if say Mexico was acting up and invading countries, and Rick Perry was running for President or Vice President I would expect him to bring up Mexico's proximity to the United States as one of the main reasons he has more political experience and knowledge of Mexico than his opponent.

So she is saying that 'one could see Russia from Alaska' and since she lives in Alaska, either she has actually seen Russia herself from Alaska (therefore confirming that she has seen Russia from Alaska) or, despite living in Alaska, has never seen Russia and is only relying on what someone else has told her.

Now, she was asked what insight she had into Russia's politics and actions. Her first answer was that one, not her personally, could see Russia from Alaska. Therefore, any Alaskan who can see and happens to be facing Russia is now automatically qualified to give insight into Russia's politics and actions? I'm sorry, but no amount of weaseling from even the most blind follower of Palin can excuse her from such a ridiculous answer. Granted, if she had said it last, after a real answer into what real insight she has, then fine, but the fact she decided to open her answer with that is just moronic. Hell, on a clear day, I can see France from the British coast, does that qualify me as an expert in French politics? No, in fact, I only have a very basic knowledge of French politics, pretty much all of which comes from reading the news. Funnily enough, being able to see a different country from your homeland does not somehow give you a psychic link to that country's politics, no matter how hard Sarah Palin and her equally idiotic fan base want to believe it.

Now, the point about Russia's proximity to Alaska might be equatable to Mexico's proximity to Texas, except that the part of Russia Alaska is adjacent to is thousands of miles of meaningless, uninhabited wasteland. Granted, some military manoeuvres by Russia take place there, but any more than the usual sabre-rattling we've come to expect from the Russians? How much of a threat it is to the USA is debatable, and an invasion by Russia is incredibly unlikely.

There is also the fact that most of Russia's political action occurs in Moscow, and if we're using proximity as a factor, both New York City and Juneau are about 4500 miles away from Moscow.

The point is, it is a ridiculous argument to say that Palin has any kind of Russian political expertise because Alaskans can see Russia.

[Roy Karrde]

So she is saying that 'one could see Russia from Alaska' and since she lives in Alaska, either she has actually seen Russia herself from Alaska (therefore confirming that she has seen Russia from Alaska) or, despite living in Alaska, has never seen Russia and is only relying on what someone else has told her.

Well living in Texas, I have never seen the border with my own eyes that doesn't mean I can't see it from El Paso. Now I have no idea how Palin learned of this, but the visibility of Russia from certain areas of Alaska most likely is a documented fact just as the visibility of the border from El Paso is a documented fact down here.

Now, she was asked what insight she had into Russia's politics and actions. Her first answer was that one, not her personally, could see Russia from Alaska. Therefore, any Alaskan who can see and happens to be facing Russia is now automatically qualified to give insight into Russia's politics and actions?

No, she was giving a example of the closeness of Russia, which plays into a very large factor of why a Governor of Alaska would have insight into Russian Political Action and Politics.

I'm sorry, but no amount of weaseling from even the most blind follower of Palin can excuse her from such a ridiculous answer. Granted, if she had said it last, after a real answer into what real insight she has, then fine, but the fact she decided to open her answer with that is just moronic. Hell, on a clear day, I can see France from the British coast, does that qualify me as an expert in French politics? No, in fact, I only have a very basic knowledge of French politics, pretty much all of which comes from reading the news. Funnily enough, being able to see a different country from your homeland does not somehow give you a psychic link to that country's politics, no matter how hard Sarah Palin and her equally idiotic fan base want to believe it.

Lets play this out, if France was buzzing across British ships, and coming dangerously close to the British homeland, making threatening gesters, and overall taking a very belligerent attitude toward Britain. Do you think the British Prime Minister would have a direct focus on what was happening in France, from the Political Situation to the Military Situation? Of course. As if France were to make one wrong move, and a international incident were to happen, Britain would be on the front line of a possible war with France.

It is idiotic of her detractors to not believe the Governor of Alaska, a state that is very much it's own country due to how disconnected it is from the rest of the United States, would not have his or her focus directed toward a neighboring country that could at any moment launch a attack that would place Alaska directly on the front lines of World War 3.

Now, the point about Russia's proximity to Alaska might be equatable to Mexico's proximity to Texas, except that the part of Russia Alaska is adjacent to is thousands of miles of meaningless, uninhabited wasteland.

Which means absolutely nothing since we are talking about war planes and missiles, not troops.

Granted, some military manoeuvres by Russia take place there, but any more than the usual sabre-rattling we've come to expect from the Russians? How much of a threat it is to the USA is debatable, and an invasion by Russia is incredibly unlikely.

It's debatable because it is a inconvenient truth for you. It may be sabre rattling, but you have a maniac in power in Russia at the moment which had just invaded a neighboring country, while tensions were escalating with the west because of our missile program. At any moment during the Georgia crisis, Putin could believe that the US support for Georgia was tantamount to war and decide to take us out. Hell at any point in the last 10 years Putin could go off the deep end and decide to blow us away. That is the risk you take when you have such a maniac in power, and as the Governor on the state that would be on the front line of such a war, she would have much more insight into the comings and goings of Russia, than a Freshman Senator from Illinois. You would have to, just as the current Governor of Texas has much more insight into the gang wars happening right across the Texas border, than the Governor of New York. It is the height of stupidity not to believe a Governor would not have every eye focused on what is happening in his or her own back yard.

There is also the fact that most of Russia's political action occurs in Moscow, and if we're using proximity as a factor, both New York City and Juneau are about 4500 miles away from Moscow.

Yet Moscow has shown that they will use military aggression against Alaska first, not New York State.

The point is, it is a ridiculous argument to say that Palin has any kind of Russian political expertise because Alaskans can see Russia.

It is just a ridiculous argument to take what she is saying at face value and not see the nuance of it.

[Blademaster]

I'm pro-Obama.

This thread amuses me.

That is all.

[Heald]

Roy, I get what you're saying, I get that a governor of Alaska ought to at least know what is going on in Russia and the political environment in Russia due to its proximity.

However, in her entire career in Alaskan politics, I can only find one instance where she ever made reference to Russia, and that is she said to GW Bush that if Russia invaded a NATO country, the USA ought to honour its NATO obligations and send troops to repel the Russians.

Otherwise, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that she even knew the name of the Russian president, let alone anything else that went on in the Russian political scene.

Palin has never been to Russia. She's never demonstrated any expertise on U.S. policy towards Russia. She doesn't have any background in international relations at any level. But for Republicans, the fact that she's lived in a state near Russia is somehow a qualification for national office.

You don't need to hear it from me though. Sarah Palin herself clears it up for us:



For the benefit of Rudy and the other bandwidth-impaired, she is asked to explain why she feels Russia's proximity to Alaska gives her the kind of foreign policy experience required of national office, and, apart from a vague reference to trade missions and national security issues (as in she mentions them but never goes into any depth on what involvement she has with either of these issues), all she does is repeat over and over that Russia is next-door neighbours with Alaska and Russia is very close to Alaska.

Until I see some evidence that Sarah Palin has actually explained the depth of her involvement in dealing with Russia as governor of Alaska, I'm afraid repeating 'next-door neighbours' ad nauseum is not reasonable evidence that she has any kind of foreign policy experience whatsoever.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, I get what you're saying, I get that a governor of Alaska ought to at least know what is going on in Russia and the political environment in Russia due to its proximity.

However, in her entire career in Alaskan politics, I can only find one instance where she ever made reference to Russia, and that is she said to GW Bush that if Russia invaded a NATO country, the USA ought to honour its NATO obligations and send troops to repel the Russians.

Otherwise, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest that she even knew the name of the Russian president, let alone anything else that went on in the Russian political scene.

Of which is not evidence that she does not get daily breifings on Russia or knows the comings and goings of Russia. Logic itself dictates she would. Also last time I checked, Governors tend to not make major political statements unless in a election year.

Palin has never been to Russia. She's never demonstrated any expertise on U.S. policy towards Russia. She doesn't have any background in international relations at any level. But for Republicans, the fact that she's lived in a state near Russia is somehow a qualification for national office.

Except the Governor would be getting daily briefings on the situation in Russia if it came close to threatening Alaska, as well as any additional briefings she requested. Not to mention you are basing your knowledge on her expertise on US Policy toward Russia, based on 2 months on the campaign trail, that in and of itself is incredibly poor judgment on your part.

You don't need to hear it from me though. Sarah Palin herself clears it up for us:

For the benefit of Rudy and the other bandwidth-impaired, she is asked to explain why she feels Russia's proximity to Alaska gives her the kind of foreign policy experience required of national office, and, apart from a vague reference to trade missions and national security issues (as in she mentions them but never goes into any depth on what involvement she has with either of these issues), all she does is repeat over and over that Russia is next-door neighbours with Alaska and Russia is very close to Alaska.

I admit the CBS interview was not her best interview. That being said the facts do speak for themselves, and while I do not live in Alaska I do live in a border state and thus have seen what a border state governor does do, what kind of information he or she gets briefed on, etc etc.

Until I see some evidence that Sarah Palin has actually explained the depth of her involvement in dealing with Russia as governor of Alaska, I'm afraid repeating 'next-door neighbours' ad nauseum is not reasonable evidence that she has any kind of foreign policy experience whatsoever.

Which I doubt you will get until the next election, until then you have to deal with the logic of the situation, based on what a Governor does get briefed on and should get briefed on when it comes to foreign policy situations that could endanger their state.

[kazr]

The mental gymnastics required to be able to come to the conclusion that the Alaskan-Russian comment about foreign policy is anything but completely ridiculous and borderline retarded is astounding.

The France/Britain analogy is terrible. Is the Prime Minister of Britain going to hang out on the edge to watch France and see what they're up to to base his decisions? Likewise is Palin going to squat down on some remote island that technically still counts as Alaska and watch the shit hole waste land of Siberia and come to some ground breaking conclusions?

[Roy Karrde]

The mental gymnastics required to be able to come to the conclusion that the Alaskan-Russian comment about foreign policy is anything but completely ridiculous and borderline retarded is astounding.

Not really if you have knowledge of the events that take place upon that border, as well as the information and knowledge that is presented to a border state governor.

The France/Britain analogy is terrible. Is the Prime Minister of Britain going to hang out on the edge to watch France and see what they're up to to base his decisions? Likewise is Palin going to squat down on some remote island that technically still counts as Alaska and watch the shit hole waste land of Siberia and come to some ground breaking conclusions?

No, they have radar as well as military officers and advisers to do that, but then again I would hope you would know that since you just said the analogy was terrible with no real argument to back that up.

[Heald]

Roy, you're basing your entire argument on the faith that Sarah Palin, as governor, received briefings purely because she was governor. Not facts, faith. I'm asking for evidence that she did receive these briefings. You're saying that because there is no evidence she didn't, that means she did. Sorry, but that doesn't cut it.

If she had said she had received briefings in her interviews, I would be inclined to believe her. The fact that she did not mention receiving briefings just builds the case against her. It would certainly be better for her than saying 'next-door neighbours'.

Otherwise, what you call 'logic', is actually just faith. Should she have received daily briefings? Yes? Did she? No evidence can suggest one way or another.

Also:

Not to mention you are basing your knowledge on her expertise on US Policy toward Russia, based on 2 months on the campaign trail, that in and of itself is incredibly poor judgment on your part.

Whereas you're basing it on faith. What's the worse judgement? Me using facts or you using faith?

[Roy Karrde]

Edit: I typed out a whole reply to the post, but then did 2 seconds on Google, guess what popped up.

In her role as Commander-in-Chief of the Alaska National Guard, Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin has received briefings on Russian military plane incursions near Alaskan airspace, an Alaska National Guard spokesman confirms to CBS News.

“Russian incursions near Alaskan airspace and inside the air defense identification zone have occurred,” a McCain campaign spokesperson told CBS News. “When they do, Governor Palin is briefed on them by the Adjutant General of the Alaska National Guard. U.S Air Force fighters have been scrambled repeatedly in response to Russian actions. After September 11, 2001, U.S. tolerance for such activities is understandably low.”

Captain Guy Hayes, an Alaska National Guard Public Affairs Officer, confirmed that Palin has received such briefings from Adjutant General Craig E. Campbell on Russian plane incursions.

“Guardsmen do work in the section that patrols the air over Alaska,” Hayes added.

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/09...y4479278.shtml

[Heald]

So she only ever received briefings when they actually occurred? Not the daily briefings you previously claimed she received?

Also, the question levelled at her what about her expertise in Russian politics, not about being briefed when incursions actually occurred. I'd imagine she would have received a briefing if that occurred, hell, I imagine the president would have also received a briefing too if Russians entered US airspace.

The point is, there is a far more disturbing lack of evidence that she has anything near the level of foreign policy experience required of national office than one or two pieces of evidence of her dealing with a foreign power.

[Roy Karrde]

So she only ever received briefings when they actually occurred? Not the daily briefings you previously claimed she received?

Neither you or I know how many briefings she got, or when she got them if they were on a daily, weekly, or monthly basis. Obviously times of heightened tension would cause her to receive more continuous updates than times of no tension.

Also, the question levelled at her what about her expertise in Russian politics, not about being briefed when incursions actually occurred. I'd imagine she would have received a briefing if that occurred, hell, I imagine the president would have also received a briefing too if Russians entered US airspace.

Except those two are interconnected, as is with the original argument about Alaska sharing a border with Russia. The border they share allows Russia to take a hostile attitude with Alaska, and invade Alaskan Airspace. As Commander and Chief of the Alaskan National Guard she has to keep up to date with threats and possible attacks that could happen, that in and of itself qualifies as experience.

The point is, there is a far more disturbing lack of evidence that she has anything near the level of foreign policy experience required of national office than one or two pieces of evidence of her dealing with a foreign power.

That is a opinion, at this point she has far more foreign policy experience than one Freshman Senator from Illinois.

[Heald]

At this point she has far more foreign policy experience than one Freshman Senator from Illinois.

This is also an opinion, and even though this isn't about Obama, if by 'at this point', you mean right this very second in time, Obama has a plethora of foreign policy experience under his belt. What does she have? Apart from a yet to be proven knowledge of Russian politics and a couple of trips she has done since being named the VP candidate, nothing. She hadn't even left the USA a year prior to being named the VP candidate. One would think that if Alaska's proximity to Russia means that it is of enough interest to the governor to be briefed daily about it, she would at least travel to Russia, or at least phone Moscow, neither of which she has done (or at least, no evidence exists for her doing). Don't try to turn this into 'well even though she has no real experience, neither does Obama' because I'm not here to support Obama, my point is the evidence for Palin even having a basic knowledge of Russian politics is minimal at best, whereas the lack of evidence suggesting she has an involved knowledge is of much greater concern.

[Andrew]

Hay guys I haven't read the thread!

But at least Obama is trying to change things, I think it's probably just the USA's indoctrinated into a culture of not getting anything done quickly through bureaucracy.
I think it also comes back into the whole "Look, unless this policy is for my political party, I ain't supportin' it!" Regardless of how good it is for the people.

[Roy Karrde]

This is also an opinion, and even though this isn't about Obama, if by 'at this point', you mean right this very second in time, Obama has a plethora of foreign policy experience under his belt.

No, as Sarah Palin is not running for the President right now. I am comparing her 3 years of Foreign Policy experience as a Governor, to the 1 year in the Senate, of which you cannot even gain much or any Foreign Policy experience when he ran as a President. If we are going to say that she doesn't have the foreign policy experience to hold National Office, then Obama when he began running did not either.

What does she have? Apart from a yet to be proven knowledge of Russian politics and a couple of trips she has done since being named the VP candidate, nothing.

You mean other than the numerous deals she did with Canada on the Alaskan Pipeline? Remember Russia is only 1 half of her Foreign Policy experience.

She hadn't even left the USA a year prior to being named the VP candidate.

While leaving the US would help gain foreign policy experience, it is not a pre requisite.

One would think that if Alaska's proximity to Russia means that it is of enough interest to the governor to be briefed daily about it, she would at least travel to Russia, or at least phone Moscow, neither of which she has done (or at least, no evidence exists for her doing).

One it is not her place to contact Moscow by phone, since you seem to know little about American Foreign Policy, we do have a hierarchy, Governor's do not deal with heads of state or even Foreign Governments in a direct fashion as a National Government does. Second that is a very piss poor example, she does not need to be over there to know what is going on over there. Governor Perry does not need to go to the Gangland held territories of Mexico to know that it is a lawless uncontrolled place that could spill over into Texas.

Don't try to turn this into 'well even though she has no real experience, neither does Obama' because I'm not here to support Obama, my point is the evidence for Palin even having a basic knowledge of Russian politics is minimal at best, whereas the lack of evidence suggesting she has an involved knowledge is of much greater concern.

You drew out the comparison and now you have to deal with it, if we are going to make her foreign policy experience a example of why she should or she should not be on the national level, then we damn well are going to compare it to others who have ascended to the national level. Don't like it, tough.

But at least Obama is trying to change things, I think it's probably just the USA's indoctrinated into a culture of not getting anything done quickly through bureaucracy.

Except he is getting the wrong things done, he passed a Stimulus and then took his eye off the ball, focusing on divisive issues like Health Care and Cap and Trade while the Stimulus failed to help the US economy. Now look at where we are at, a dead Cap and Trade bill, a dead Health Care bill, and a economy that is getting worse again.

I think it also comes back into the whole "Look, unless this policy is for my political party, I ain't supportin' it!" Regardless of how good it is for the people.

Is that why Independents and Democrats as seen in the Scott Brown victory are moving toward the Republican party?

[Heald]

One it is not her place to contact Moscow by phone, since you seem to know little about American Foreign Policy, we do have a hierarchy, Governor's do not deal with heads of state or even Foreign Governments in a direct fashion as a National Government does.

This is exactly my point, thank you for proving it for me. She has no foreign policy experience because it has never been her place. She deals with state issues; dealing with foreign countries, which is what foreign policy is, is a federal issue. She might be briefed when Russian planes fly over US airspace, but then again, that's national news and what she knows anyone reading a newspaper will know too. You've still yet to effectively portray Palin as someone who is reliable in terms of foreign policy.

You drew out the comparison and now you have to deal with it

Err, actually you started it with:

she has far more foreign policy experience than one Freshman Senator from Illinois.

I couldn't give two shits about Obama, the fact is you couldn't prove Palin is an acceptable candidate for president due to her horrible lack of foreign policy experience so you use your usual fall-back of 'well at least she isn't as bad as Obama', as if your horribly skewed opinion on Obama and Democrats as a whole is a good metric of how suited to a national office a candidate is.

[Roy Karrde]

This is exactly my point, thank you for proving it for me. She has no foreign policy experience because it has never been her place. She deals with state issues; dealing with foreign countries, which is what foreign policy is, is a federal issue. She might be briefed when Russian planes fly over US airspace, but then again, that's national news and what she knows anyone reading a newspaper will know too. You've still yet to effectively portray Palin as someone who is reliable in terms of foreign policy.

Except since Foreign Policy covers many aspects it is nieve if not stupid to say she has no foreign policy experience. She may not be dealing directly with the Russian Government, but that does not mean she was not briefed on Russian activities that could endanger her state, either on a political level, or on a military level. Just as my Governor is briefed on Gang and Mafia activities that could threaten my state.

Second you seem to forget that Russia is only one of two countries she dealt with. She did have permission to deal with the Canadian Government on the Alaskan Oil Pipeline, a project that she spent alot of time on as governor.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcont...2.26d3d5b.html

Err, actually you started it with:

Err I was replying to

The point is, there is a far more disturbing lack of evidence that she has anything near the level of foreign policy experience required of national office

If we are going to look at the requirements for national office on the level of foreign policy then comparing her to the man that just took said national office is a just comparison.

I couldn't give two shits about Obama, the fact is you couldn't prove Palin is an acceptable candidate for president due to her horrible lack of foreign policy experience so you use your usual fall-back of 'well at least she isn't as bad as Obama', as if your horribly skewed opinion on Obama and Democrats as a whole is a good metric of how suited to a national office a candidate is.

If Palin some how becomes a unacceptable candidate for President due to her foreign policy experience then I have every right to compare her to the current President, if we are going to establish a foreign policy baseline for the Presidency then I have every right to begin with Obama.

[Andrew]

Words!

Roy, you destroy everything you touch in Misc.

I was talking more bout the politicians than 'the people.'

Btw - My opinion is that of a casual outside observer, I am not privvy to the power plays for each bill.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, you destroy everything you touch in Misc.

I love you too? See this is why I stopped debating in Misc!

I was talking more bout the politicians than 'the people.'

Oh my bad

[Heald]

I'll grant that dealing with Canada gives her some foreign policy experience, but I still disagree that merely being briefed, and since we have only been able to accurately prove that these briefings only occurred when tensions were high (such as airspace incursions) merits stating that she had the deep insight into Russian politics that the McCain/Palin campaign purported she had.

That said, a rudimentary search of the internet has shown that during his career as a Senator, Obama had much involvement in legislation involving foreign countries, including the Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act, of which Obama was the primary sponsor. He was also a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and as a result of this he travelled to over 20 countries on official business on behalf of the government in order to deal in person with foreign ministers and dignitaries, in countries in Africa, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Russia, and we're not even including his vast experience and knowledge of countries before he entered politics. And of course there are the official visits to Europe and the Middle East he made during his presidential campaign.

Granted, none of this is executive experience, but in my eyes, and seemingly the eyes of the American voters, considering this was the man who was elected as president, better than sitting in your office looking at Russia with a telescope whilst an official comes in to tell you a small iceberg floated down the Bering Strait that morning.

[Roy Karrde]

That said, a rudimentary search of the internet has shown that during his career as a Senator, Obama had much involvement in legislation involving foreign countries, including the Democratic Republic of the Congo Relief, Security, and Democracy Promotion Act, of which Obama was the primary sponsor. He was also a member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, and as a result of this he travelled to over 20 countries on official business on behalf of the government in order to deal in person with foreign ministers and dignitaries, in countries in Africa, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, the Middle East, Asia and Russia, and we're not even including his vast experience and knowledge of countries before he entered politics.

None of which he ran on in the campaign, infact his Foreign Policy experience was so poor, that he had to grab Joe Biden as his vice president to boost his failing foreign policy credentials. And it should be noted when that legislation happened, did it happen after he began to run in 06 or before, the same with the trips.

And of course there are the official visits to Europe and the Middle East he made during his presidential campaign.

Not valid here, as if we are going to use that to boost Obama's foreign policy cred, then I have every right to use the official visits Palin was on during her Vice Presidential Campaign.

Granted, none of this is executive experience, but in my eyes, and seemingly the eyes of the American voters, considering this was the man who was elected as president, better than sitting in your office looking at Russia with a telescope whilst an official comes in to tell you a small iceberg floated down the Bering Strait that morning.

Except his foreign policy experience was never a issue, it was one with Sarah Palin, now we can go through how much of those things actually happened before he started running in 06, and how much of them happened afterwards. But I would think we can both agree that due to the Vice Presidential choice of Joe Biden, that he himself saw and worried about his lacking foreign policy credentials.

[Heald]

Meh, true, McCain was probably the strongest foreign policy wise out of the 4 (including Palin and Biden) but I think the election was mostly won and lost on anger at Republicans for 8 years of Bush and Obama's ridiculously good image in the media. Of course, now the sheen is coming off, he's going to have to fight hard for his next election, regardless of his opponent. It could get so bad that even Hillary might take a swipe and challenge him in the primary.

[Blademaster]

The mental gymnastics required to be able to come to the conclusion that the Alaskan-Russian comment about foreign policy is anything but completely ridiculous and borderline retarded is astounding.

Not really if you have knowledge of the events that take place in Misc. on a regular basis.

FTFY, kazr. You've just been gone too long to realize what 'debating' on this forum has become.

Hay guys I haven't read the thread!

But at least Obama is trying to change things, I think it's probably just the USA's indoctrinated into a culture of not getting anything done quickly through bureaucracy.
I think it also comes back into the whole "Look, unless this policy is for my political party, I ain't supportin' it!" Regardless of how good it is for the people.

Words!

Roy, you destroy everything you touch in Misc.

I was talking more bout the politicians than 'the people.'

Btw - My opinion is that of a casual outside observer, I am not privvy to the power plays for each bill.

Dear Andrew,

If this is your general viewpoint, please post in every Misc. topic concerning politics from now on.

Sincerely, Blade

I love you too? See this is why I stopped debating in Misc!

You stopped debating in Misc.!? Really!? *looks wildly through topic* When?! When!?

[Roy Karrde]

You stopped debating in Misc.!? Really!? *looks wildly through topic* When?! When!?

You haven't noticed me pretty much being absent from Misc for the vast majority of 2009?

[Andrew]

Blade, I don't know if you are serious or not .

I would hope to live in a world where we have governments for the good of the people, not their own personal aims of staying in power. I personally try and support policies and not get too hung up on who is presenting it. Would Obama's policies attract so much bile if McCain presented them?

Btw McCain wad a hot 20yo...