Are you religious? Yes/No and Why

[Andrew]

So TPM, do you believe in a higher power. Jesus or whatevs? What's led you to that decision?

If not, why not?

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Good, I missed Metallix's Girl's topic completely not being here yesterday.

I'm a sceptic. I don't deny any possibility that there could be a higher being, nor do I omit an option that perhaps God doesn't exist. I just suspect every point of view mankind has about God's existence.

Some say Atheism is a religion too since they do have an opinion on God's existence, too. Also, I always feel somewhat irritated when people talk about the existence of one God versus no god at all since there are numerous religions with many gods (like Hinduism) and then there are also the Pantheistic religions like Shinto in Japan. Sure I understand the western world forgets all that with Christianity, Judaism and Islam dominating.

I was a religion freak when I was a little kid, I used to read The Bible a lot. Meaning the old 1938 translation, a new one wasn't published until 1992 here in Finland. I was able to point out many peculiar parts that my schoolmates had no idea of being there. Like phases describling raping and whoring, an immature attention-whore I was. Now I'm a mature attention-whroe, for the record.

In 1996, when I was 11, I read Sinuhe The Egyptian by Mika Waltari. It was about this Egyptian Pharaoh Ekhnaton/Akhenaten who was ahead his time by promoting Monohesim. That didn't work well out accorrding to the book and I was so convinced that I changed from Christianity to Polytheism. I began to research ancient cultures' religions and found a new way there. I didn't even go to rippikoulu, a school where Finns usually 'study' Christianity at the age of 14 or 15. My friends found it odd, especially because I knew practically everything about it already and had memorized prayers and parts of The Bible.

Then I had this one weird phase where I started my very own different kind of religion and worshipped a girl who I had a crush on as a goddess. Next, I stubled upon Japan and Pokemon and things like that and was a distant-shintoist for some time, until I declared myself sceptic in 2003 or something.

[Magmar]

I am currently not religious. I was raised in a Pentecostal household and while I will spare the details it was like hell on earth considering we were supposed to be so godly and heavenly. Extreme Christianity excuses negative, archaic behaviors as justified by God. They teach you that any day Jesus is going to descend from the sky like this guy:


And he's going to take up all the good Christians into heaven for an eternity of paradise, then everyone else gets plummeted into hell for seven years, most people die, and everyone pretty much goes to hell in a handbasket. So you have to hurry up and "witness" to as many people as possible and "save" them (and get them to come to your church and pay a tithe of 10%, padding pastor's pockets)... Otherwise they will suffer forever. You are told that even your Christian relatives who may not be protestant are going to hell, and at a young age when that is drilled into you twice a week over time, you start to feel fear of this "second coming".

[ChobiChibi]

I'm a Christian. Just not the kind that shouts about it. My faith is mine and mine alone, I see no reason why I should force it onto anyone else. I don't really like religious debates either, since I'd rather people just get along and not fight about the existence of something that's so personal to the individual.

My bf came to one of the church services the chamber choir did at Uni and said it felt like a cult... I didn't like that very much :/

Church services are like routine to me. I only really go when I'm at home, unless I've been invited to sing somewhere or the chamber choir are doing something. Very much a traditionalist too. Give me a somber hymn over happy clappy, shouty "praise the lord!" songs any day.

Random fact, my dad's an atheist. He's never stopped me going to church though, in fact he's always supported me, even came to my confirmation. Maybe because my choir as developed my music education quite a bit, and that's what I intend to do for my career, but I'd like to think it's more than just that. Ah well, he doesn't force his beliefs on me, I won't force mine on him.

[Telume]

I stopped going to church when I started middle school, I'm honestly not religious. I'm atheist, if there is something then there's something.

If you believe in the flying spaghetti monster, then that's up to you. Don't force your beliefs on me and I won't get angry at you. I just, don't see the point of religion. Aside from people needing to have faith in something.

All the bullshit you hear about religion now-a-days has kind of jaded me with regards to religion. All it's shown me is that people blindly put faith in something they can't see (and in some cases understand), so I've chosen not to follow any of it and it's served me just fine.

TLDR: I've lost faith in all religion because of the people who take it to extremes.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Magmar, your 5,666th post is approaching! Apocalypse here and now!

One of my classmates never raised his hand in Religion lessons. Except one occasion.

Teacher: Can you name some problems with the idea of monotheism in Christianity?

Mikachu Yukitatsu's classmate: Satan!

[Link]

I'm Christian. I have been going to church ever since I was 16. I am 26 now. I don't force my beliefs on others and I trust other people to do the same. That said, Jesus to me is the epitome of what it meant to walk with God. He taught powerful lessons. His resurrection is a testament to what it means to be with God.

[Bear]

I was raised Christian, Methodist more specifically. My parents made me go to Church until I was 13, then allowed me to make my own decision. Of course, being a young teen, I opted for the easy route and stopped going. I never stopped considering myself a Christian, but I was not very consistent with it. However, when I was in college, I started to be drawn back to my faith. As I had gotten older, I became more knowledgeable about faith, what it meant, and how it impacted my life. Like many people I WANTED to believe in a higher power, but I was a skeptic because I did not see enough proof for my liking. It didn't really occur to me at the time that this is PRECISELY what faith is about--believing in what you cannot see or prove. It wasn't until I was an adult that I realized everything that was going on, and what was behind it. I realized that I had gone through several experiences at various points in my life that I could not fully explain, that I had merely brushed off as coincidence. I won't go into huge detail about everything, but I'll try to remember an example for reference:

-In 2008, my girlfriend that I had been dating for a year and a half broke up with me on Valentine's Day. I was sure she was the one, since I had convinced myself she had no flaws. She was such a drastic improvement over my prior relationship that I just assumed she was perfect, and that I had landed the big one. Needless to say this breakup crushed me. I was depressed and in denial for a couple of months (Kuro Espeon, my sister, can testify to this), doing nothing but pray and pray for her to come back to me. This lasted until around May, when I let it out of my grasp and began to move on. I went on a 2 week vacation to various destinations in PA, NJ, NY, and OH to visit family and friends. One stop along the way was a weekend in NJ to hang out with, of all people, the ex that had dumped me. We had remained friends so we were on good terms, so we went to a party for her best friend's birthday. Among the attendees to this party was a girl named Christina. Christina, her friend Shiv, and I were the three oldest people there, with the majority of the crowd being undergrads under or around the age of 21. I thought she was damn cute, so I struck up a conversation with her. We had chemistry right off the bat, and before the night was over I got the chance to kiss her. We mutually decided not to take things further than that, out of respect. The night ended, we both went home to sleep, and all I had was her phone number.

The next day (Saturday) we texted back and forth. A good bit of getting to know each other and talking about how fun the previous night was. Toward the end of the day, I asked her if she'd like to meet up at the Mall and have lunch Sunday before I left town. She agreed, and we met up in Bridgewater. What was supposed to be a brief lunch date turned into a 7 hour continuous conversation as we steadily walked around the mall. We talked for so long, in fact, that I chose to postpone my drive to Rochester until the morning, and stay the night in a hotel. Toward the end of the evening, I decided I would ask her out. I was 24 years old and at a point in my life where I wasn't doing much, so I figured 'what the hell.' To my great delight she said yes, and we began a long distance relationship between herself in New Jersey and myself in Virginia. I quickly discovered that she not only fit the profile of the woman I wanted, but she fulfilled all of the needs I had only recently discovered were important to me. She had the perfect combination of affection and ability to give me space. She was beautiful in mind and body, and made me happier than I had ever been. It was at this point that I finally realized how imperfect my ex was, and how wrong she was for me as a companion.

Sorry for the extraordinary length of that story, but this situation was one that showed me more than just chance at work. With all the praying I had done to bring my ex back to me, somebody was listening and working on the best solution for me. But that solution, contrary to my ignorant wishes, was to bring a new and even better woman into my life, a woman who I am marrying in less than 6 months. At that point, I finally realized that God was looking out for my well being after all, and sometimes his greatest gifts are unanswered prayers.

Now please remember, this is just my testimonial. I am not in any way, shape, or form telling everyone here that they must believe in God now. I know some of you will probably even pick apart my story and attribute my perceived results to a different cause. This is just one of the many situations I have encountered that has convinced me God is at work in my life, and there is a plan/purpose for me.

[Blademaster]

Shame MxG's topic got closed... I had a LOT to say about it...

Anyway, according to Wikipedia, I'm a 'transcendent panentheist,' which basically means I believe two things: 1. 'God' is the entire Universe, and vice-versa, as opposed to being separate from it like the bearded dude in the Bible, and 2. 'God' doesn't really give a shit about our planet because it's essentially a single grain of sand on a galaxy-sized beach and deserves no more or less attention than any other body in the cosmos.

And even THAT isn't my exact belief; it's simply the closest to what I believe that evidently qualifies as a type of religion.

I DID used to be Catholic, and go to a Catholic grade school. This entailed going to Church every week or so in school, praying three times a day in school everyday, and wearing uniforms and following codes of conduct one might find in 1930's Germany. Once I realized that I was being brainwashed, I backed off and became home-schooled during my junior high and high school years. It took me ten YEARS to get over the fears that they instilled in me: That I was constantly under the watchful eyes of an all-seeing, angry being who could and would let me suffer forever for so much as looking at Him funny.

Thanks a lot, religion. You really made my life better.

[Heald]

God - and the idea of God - is beautiful and incredible, in a spiritual, or theological, or scientific, or emotional way. No concept or being in the history of mankind has inspired such brilliant beauty, as well as inspired humans to atrocities.

I was raised in a Christian household and I was taken by my parents to Church every Sunday until I was about 7, which was when I was old enough to join the local rugby club and train with the Junior teams. To describe any belief or faith I had in any religion I had at that point in time is pointless; I knew what I had been told and had never really given pause to what I actually believed. When I was 11, I began taking a very logical look at life and as such didn't really care too much for God or religion. All I saw was evidence of a world that worked without any higher power or hocus pocus, and I became incredibly sceptical of the existence of God, to the point of briefly becoming atheist.

I had a semi-crisis when my father tragically and unexpectedly died when I was 13. This wasn't just a crisis of faith but just a crisis of generally all aspects of my life (including heavily abusing drink and drugs and skipping school and generally being a complete douche). During this time I did begin to explore the spirituality of the situation, and at the same time I had begun studying Theology at school. I was, surprisingly, fascinated by it, not just by religion but by philosophy, ethics and the general supernatural. I didn't instantly believe every 'miracle' I read, but I didn't instantly deny what someone like Dawkins would simply dismiss as 'perfectly explainable by science'.

Perhaps the idea of God intrigues me more than the existence of a God itself. One thing I have come to terms with is that I am too logical to be a traditional Christian, as I would constantly question my faith, but at the same time I feel if I turned my back on religion altogether, I would be missing a large part of the story. I feel that any God or higher being is so stupendously enigmatic that to seek understanding of Him would be a waste of a life. Whatever He is, and if He exists at all, is not really the point, in my opinion. If you find an idea of God that you are happy to believe in, then by all means do.

Am I a Christian, an Agnostic, or an Atheist? Or just a Theist? The thing is I hate labels. I'm none of these things. Christianity, and in fact all Organised Religion, has lost its way. I'd like the world to become secure enough about such things so that not only would all the religious learn to tolerate and accept the beliefs, or lack of, of others, but also that those who do choose to be religious aren't mocked, ridiculed, or insulted by a bunch of insecure morons, like those who in Metallix's Girl's thread. Seriously, I felt nothing but pity for nearly everyone who posted in that thread (I'm not including those who actually conducted themselves like human beings, just those who wanted to pick on someone because of a harmless belief she holds). Metallix's Girl has an incredibly beautiful belief, not one I personally agree with in whole but can at least respect, and all you people wanted to do was be assholes on the internet.

[Bear]

Here's something for people to think about and discuss:

Many people dismiss Christ's resurrection as a hoax, and that the 500 people who were eye witnesses to it were paid off/otherwise convinced to perpetrate it. By 'eye witness', I mean they saw him, alive and well, after he had been crucified and entombed. These 500 people were heavily persecuted, ruthlessly tortured, and ultimately killed by the government of the day for attesting to this event, whereas they were offered immediate freedom if they simply denied it. To say Christ's resurrection is a hoax is to say that 500 people were convinced to greatly suffer and die protecting a lie rather than tell the truth and live happily ever after. Now, call me crazy, but who in their right mind would do that? Even getting a handful of people to do something like that would be a monumental feat, but 500? The gentlemen involved in Watergate could not even keep up their lie, and they faced much gentler punishment than the 500 eyewitnesses to Christ's resurrection. This is a pretty solid indicator in my eyes.

Any thoughts?

[Andrew]

Bear - Can you identify any of those 500 people? Full names and addresses? Photos? Sketch a picture for me?

[Heald]

Photos?

3/10. Try harder.

[Asilynne]

I'm religious, but I'm not specifically any denomination of Christianity because growing up my mom took me to many different denominations' churches. I saw that basically they were all sort of the same idea, just different interpretations. So rather than follow someone elses interpretation, or the literal meanings as some people do >.> I might as well form my own ideas about the events and lessons in the bible. I also don't believe in shoving my beliefs on others because that is counterproductive. No where in the bible or in any teaching does it say "disrespect other people" and by trying to force my beliefs on them, or try to convert them, or rant and rave at them that they are going to hell if they aren't just like me, that is disrespecting them.
As for the why, my parents weren't consistent with taking me and my siblings to church (thus the many different kinds of churches I went to) but because of my dad it was always a part of my life. He never pressured us to believe a certain way, he just talked about events in his life and spoke of God as part of day to day life and not in a preachy way. He talked about his feelings and what helps him, and when he told us bible stories he always told them to us in a way that we could relate to, and he always encouraged us to be our own person and decide things for ourselves.
In my teenaged years I went through some of the worst times in my life, and I prayed really hard about it. One of the defining moments of my belief comes from one of my lowest points, and how I got the exact specific sign that I asked for.
I don't always get the things that I pray for, but like James has said, sometimes it was for a reason. And I'm not concerned if anyone else believes in the same thing as me because just telling people things won't affect them as much as them experiencing it for themselves. It's not up to anyone but the individual to come to such a personal decision as what they believe about a higher power.

[Bear]

Bear - Can you identify any of those 500 people? Full names and addresses? Photos? Sketch a picture for me?

.

[Andrew]

Then unless you can back up your baseless 'facts and figures.' It really doesn't belong in this thread.

HERPA DERPA DUUURRRRR

[Asilynne]

Then unless you can back up your baseless 'facts and figures.' It really doesn't belong in this thread.

HERPA DERPA DUUURRRRR

Are you seriously asking for facts and figures on a subject that I think everyone can agree is for the most part based on faith? That's kinda the whole point of this thread, why people have FAITH in something with little to no concrete facts. So you asking for facts is out of place in this faith based thread.

Derp

[kurai]

.

the key is probably that you are not reading 500 first hand accounts but instead a number that paul wrote down decades later in another part of the world not having been there himself. this also requires the literal use of "500" and "seen" which is probably a bold step when considering the motivations of the author.

i don't believe in anything religiously and am somewhat sad that i can never share the kind of faith-based community that comes about from it, but also feel that it would be dishonest to deceive myself to allow for participation in such things. i sort of feel bad about discussing my own contrary views as i have seen the value it holds for others, and do not want to dissuade them.

existentially i suppose i believe in a deterministic universe which i take to sort of imply a first motion/pre-universe state, but this is beyond description and comprehension (and inaccessible, thus lacking any purpose in worship/religion). when combined with a social constructionist approach, any sort of religious feeling of mine would probably align to upanishadic/advaita vedanta concepts of reality (tat tvam asi), but i do not see the point in artifice beyond recognition of the state at present, so i can not get behind any related modern practices.

as for why i believe this, i suppose i was raised in a manner that supported both empiricist science and periodic numinous feeling, but these are contradictory. the latter only remains in the sense that i still conceive of forces beyond the calculably apparent (but not in a way that requires divinity, instead merely that which is beyond my capacity).

[Jeff]

Born and raised a Catholic. As a teenager, I didn't really understand the point of it all, but as I've gotten older I've grown to understand it more. Like most faithful people I had a defining moment in my life that helped me find my faith. As many of you may know, a couple years ago, the night before Thanksgiving, my grandfather suffered a sudden near-fatal heart attack, and had to undergo emergency surgery that he only had a 25% chance of surviving. Thinking about how he wouldn't get to see his 75th birthday, his 50th anniversary, and my sister's wedding, all that were happening the next year, I prayed for him to get better, our whole family prayed for him. Not only did he make it through the night, but he's still doing fine today.

Of course that proves nothing, but it does help me believe. Yes, there's a difference. Belief is an opinion, proven things are facts. The one thing that is certain about God's existence is that it can't be proven or disproven, so it can only be seen as a question of belief. Because of that, I don't try and push my opinion on anyone, and don't let others push their opinion on me.

[Metallixs Girl]

I guess I don't really need to answer yes or no, hehe, but I'd like to tell you guys some things about my belief in God and Jesus.

First of all, I wasn't born into a denomination, but I was raised as a Baptist from birth. What I mean by that is I believe no one is born into a denomination, they are born as themselves. God created us in the womb and knows and loves all of us, whom He made. But denomination is an invention of man, and salvation is not dependant on a denomination but on an individual's choice whether or not to believe in Christ's sacrifice as the Son of God.

I'd just like to say, that I believe if Christ had to die for us to be able to live, then sin must be very very serious. Whether or not you believe the Bible, the sins in it are in fact natural to us, as it says, and that is the truth, which is why people do get upset at the mention of the Gospel. Since we are undoubtably living in what the Bible calls sin, and we just can't stop doing it whether we want to or not, I don't think we can really grasp what life would be without it, and it's beyond our understanding why someone needs to die over it. I trust God in this, that he knows what's right.

I believe in American culture, politics can be kind of a trap if we're not wise. It causes hate, and it complicates life for a Christian who just wants to share the Gospel, at least on the Internet. But America's laws allow everyone to vote their consciences, and we all do. But not every conservative is a Christian and there are some Christian democrats and independants, I assume. Again, it's an individual choice everyone can make. I've fallen into this trap so this is also a reminder to myself.

4th, Please, I ask non-Christians to please remember that Christians are human and they are not perfect, and misunderstandings happen, and if a Christian is in fact being hateful to you, don't worry about it and please don't be upset at Jesus for it, because I believe they would be convicted of it at some point. We are all still walking and growing and learning. Each of our relationships to God are individual ones.

As for me, I think all that is needed is for a Christian to tell someone the Gospel once, and let them make the choice between God and them and answer any questions they might have. I realized that I had been here as long as I have and while you knew I was a Christian, I had never shared the Gospel with y'all. So I decided to while I was happy and wanted to please God. I thought just writing the plain simple Gospel would be best. May I ask what is considered pushing it on people? I thought that was following someone around bugging them to death, or spamming it on a thread, or condemning them.

I do fully believe the Bible is from God. I can see Jesus thoughout the old Testement. The KJV I read was written by many many different people, and translated by many more. But to me, it reads like it was written by one person, which is amazing to me. It flows so natuarally together, and it all points to Christ. I have many logic-based reasons for believing it. A few off the top of my head are the Genesis says species reproduce after their own kind, which is true. It says that blood is life, which is true because without blood, a limb or whatever will die. Also it says God used wind to part the red sea, which I read was proven true by scientists. Also they keep finding different artifacts and stuff that confirm the Bible. I don't know what the Big Bang is if there was one, but for all I know, the Big Bang could have been God saying "Let there be light". I'm not concerned about it because I believe if we find that out, the Biblical account will still be true. We have the saying "The winner gets to write the history book", well, since Jesus won victory at the Cross, the Bible is God's history book.

About sins again, I believe the sins all harm an indevidual in some way, either them or their relationship to God. I don't fully understand it of course, but I do have theories on why sins are bad for us, and that God's laws for the Israelites did make sense. It's been a long time since I read Leviticus, and there are things I don't understand, but I trust God with it.

I believe the Holy Spirit does come to the heart of a believer and changes them from within, because He did it to me. He is my comforter and teacher, and Jesus is my friend, and savior, and my rock. Jesus and the angels always would say Don't worry and fear not.

Blade, and the other ASBers, why I left and came back was not about TPM, it was actually about me finding out that I shouldn't serve gods in MMORPGs, because God said it was time for me to give it up, because I was wasting time and he had better stuff for me than that, and even if they were pretend, all other gods are pretend and I shouldn't be doing quests for churches like in DDO. Unfortunately all those MMOs have some form of church or other gods, so I stopped dead. A few days later He wiped away my urge to play (they are really addicting after all) and I was able to come back to TPM guilt free because I had obeyed. This doesn't mean MMOs are evil and everyone should quit, it's just a weakness of mine that I had to confront. I've heard of some Christians who play MMOs and spread the Gospel, but that's not my calling. Just wanted to clarify that while I had the chance here. ^^

I guess that's all I have to say, except, I believe Christ will come back soon, and I do believe in the rapture, and 1000 year reign and Great White Throne and stuff.

I'm glad you made this topic, Andrew.

I forgot to mention, I've had a lot of things happen to me, including my dad passing away very fast of Cancer last september. I know he's waiting in heaven, and Jesus has walked with me and held me up every step of the way.

[Andrew]

Are you seriously asking for facts and figures on a subject that I think everyone can agree is for the most part based on faith? That's kinda the whole point of this thread, why people have FAITH in something with little to no concrete facts. So you asking for facts is out of place in this faith based thread.
Derp

No. To compare Watergate (Of which there is a concrete account) to the persecution of 500 people who have been mentioned in a document (The Bible) which has undergone countless translations throughout the ages, been edited by many different people for their own purposes makes me sceptical that everything written in the bible is true. Some people have said that the Vatican has the oldest records of the Bible, but has edited it and released their version to the masses in order to serve their own needs.

So to say there was definitely 500 people who witnessed Jesus rising from the dead... unless you have actual proof that isn't based simply off of a story in the Bible, I find it hard to believe.

TL -DR The Bible is a compromised document so Bear's 'truth' which he has taken from it is about as reliable as someone suffering from dementia.

This thread was for you to discuss why you're religious or why not. Not to post something to prove "That's totes why god exists" Or "It's in the Bible so it MUST be true"

Heald - That was a joke that obviously went right past you. Photos in biblical times lol.

As for my own personal persuasion. I don't believe in God. I went to a very religious Catholic Primary School. Church twice a week in one of the oldest churches in the country. An hour of religion every morning. Prayers 5 times a day.

I didn't really understand why we were praying to God when I was a little kid. I came to my own conclusion that he was about as real as Santa, but being in a massive church filled with a thousand people really makes you keep those opinions to yourself. I was convinced that if Jesus or God really existed, there'd be an actual proxy for this holy being on Earth. I thought, "1990 years since he's been here... and there's no proof he's been here since then... all those people devoting their lives for so long with not even a sign... that's pretty silly."

But I think thinks really came to head when in Year 2 and we were learning about Noah's Ark. I asked the question about dinosaurs and got in a bit of an argument with the Nun. I asked why there wasn't any details of them in the bible or being created during those 7 days. She said they never existed. However, I had books all about dinosaurs, dinosaur toys, encyclopaedias to back me up. I'd even been to the museum a few times and always been in awe of these massive creatures and the skeletons that remained. Plus, the previous year, the teacher had done a unit on dinosaurs.

We back-and-forwarded. But eventually got told to shut up and for everyone to ignore that dinosaurs were there. We had a small meeting where I had to agree to keep a lid on this dinosaurs nonsense with the priest and the nun. I really should've told my mother. But, being 7, you can easily be told what to do. I assumed that after this meeting I was now 'In the know" about Jesus/God/Holy Spirit not existing, like Santa.

So for years I simply paid lip service, but I honestly never believed it. I think it's sad, but when you're dead, you're dead. If there truly is an afterlife, Jesus forgives all those who ask to be forgiven, right? I can totes repent then. Also, I never really understood the concept of three beings sharing a conciousness yet being the same. I just couldn't wrap my head around God (Bearded dude in robes) Jesus (Crucifixed dude) and the Holy Spirit (.. No fucking idea) being the same actual being.

But until someone from heaven descends to earth and starts some miracles up. I'm not drinking the punch. I'm not devoting my life to some being who may/may not have wandered the earth THOUSANDS of years ago> And I'm certainly not going to live by the bible which is a compromised document and has been edited by many unscrupulous people throughout the ages. When you study historical events, you can see that religion was simply used to control the masses. Whether to rally them to war, to rally behind an heir, or to invade other people and murder them. Religion has been the cause of so many murdered people throughout the ages.

I'm kind of rambling now.

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

I can live with religion, but the brainwashing aspect (and fanatism) just makes me shiver and puke at times; which is why I don't really like talking about it.

Half the world is in some way blinded by faith - no offense - especially since there are plently of people (religious or not) who aren't that intelligent and fall for religious traps (i'm not saying religion is a trap, i'm just saying some people misuse religion).

After a while religion doesn't differ that much from a cult, especially in America. I mean, I can live with religion, religious people or even the idea of being religious myself (since I am a christian actually), but I can get my head around people who deny Darwin, evolutiontheory and state that God made everything in seven days? That the world is only 5000 year old? That dinosaurs and humans lived together and that a fucking flood took down the dinosaurs? Seriously, that's just shallow IMO.

[Magmar]

I wonder how much of the Bible is a collection of old fables, like a book of Aesop, or Grimm, that has simply been expanded upon by others. There were dozens of cultures in the Middle East in those years with their own sets of beliefs. The God of the culture that conquered was the one that stuck around. I have a hard time believing Earth is only 6,000 years old when we have so many fossils and records from earlier that survived the test of time through being buried deep within the earth. Maybe humans are aliens and we only arrived relatively recently. Maybe we are the aliens that are spoken about in hieroglyphics, that descended from the sky to populate and take over the Earth. I mean there has to be a reason that people are so different from other animals, right? We have the gifts of language and conscience.

I believe that we should harm no others and then we are not sinning. I don't think partying is a sin, or listening to punk rock, getting tattoos, or sexual diversity. That's just silly. Why is everything that's fun supposedly evil? People should just be able to do their own wild things without a guilt trip. Rather than every time I take a shot or smoke a bowl have my mind flooded with "OMG that's so wrong." It's not wrong in moderation.

In short I believe people are higher beings than animals but I don't understand why or how. I'm not sure where my conscious thought process falls on a cosmic scale, whether I'm just a whisper in a hurricane, or whether I'm living in a special era. I guess we'll see if the world starts to fall apart... But I can't take every natural phenomena--hurricane, nor'easter, earthquake--to be a sign of the end of the world when they have been happening for 4.5 billion years without completely destroying earth's propensity to support life.

[Bear]

No. To compare Watergate (Of which there is a concrete account) to the persecution of 500 people who have been mentioned in a document (The Bible) which has undergone countless translations throughout the ages, been edited by many different people for their own purposes makes me sceptical that everything written in the bible is true. Some people have said that the Vatican has the oldest records of the Bible, but has edited it and released their version to the masses in order to serve their own needs.

So to say there was definitely 500 people who witnessed Jesus rising from the dead... unless you have actual proof that isn't based simply off of a story in the Bible, I find it hard to believe.

TL -DR The Bible is a compromised document so Bear's 'truth' which he has taken from it is about as reliable as someone suffering from dementia.

I understand your point, but if you're going to discount the Bible because it's been through translations, you'll have to entertain the same possibility for any historical document from another culture. Do you really want to start down a path that will obligate you to question every historical document that has ever been translated to another language? I am perfectly aware that, when a document is rewritten or translated, the translator has the power to make alterations based on his own opinions. It's not that easy though, because a work as widely popular as the Bible cannot be drastically changed without someone noticing. If the Bible had varied too much from when it was originally written, it would have been noticed. That being said, I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that the Bible is fairly accurate as to its original version.

Let us also remember that Paul was not always Christian. Paul began as Saul, a Pharisee who participated in the persecution of Jesus' followers. He converted to Christianity after he (and his followers) witnessed the risen Christ. Now, why would a person who was so intensely anti-Christian and anti-Jesus suddenly convert voluntarily after so much activity to the complete contrary? It's just not a likely scenario unless he had seen something to definitively convince him of the wrong in his actions. I don't know about y'all, but if Jesus appeared to me after I'd seen him die and asked me why I was persecuting him, I would probably make a real quick 180 in my beliefs.

[Ayeun]

I find it funny that Christians preach about God's love for all, but then say that Homosexuals (and lesbians) are an abomination in God's eyes. How can we be his beloved children, and abominations at the same time...

And how about if God loves ALL his children (and the church says that we are ALL his children), then how come when his 'rapture' comes, that only 6600 are going to heaven, and the rest are going to hell?

Some times, I want to walk up to those people at the pro-life centers and 'thank' them. I was going to be an abortion baby, but because MY mum listened and they told her that God will love me no matter what, that they saved me... Just so I can turn out to be the 'Abomination' that they call me now... Guess that God DOESN'T love us all...

Fin~

[Heald]

I find it funny that Christians preach about God's love for all, but then say that Homosexuals (and lesbians) are an abomination in God's eyes. How can we be his beloved children, and abominations at the same time...

And how about if God loves ALL his children (and the church says that we are ALL his children), then how come when his 'rapture' comes, that only 6600 are going to heaven, and the rest are going to hell?

Some times, I want to walk up to those people at the pro-life centers and 'thank' them. I was going to be an abortion baby, but because MY mum listened and they told her that God will love me no matter what, that they saved me... Just so I can turn out to be the 'Abomination' that they call me now... Guess that God DOESN'T love us all...

Fin~

Yeah, that's only Fundamentalists, don't lump all Christians in together.

That's like saying all lesbians are fat ugly morons because Rosie O'Donnell is a lesbian and a fat ugly moron.

[Katie]

I believe early humans had no idea how to explain, well, anything, so they made up stories with characters who had cool powers and said "they did it!" If it's okay to assume that's how Zeus, Ra, and all those funny gods and goddesses came into human societies then why not also the Christian god? Then the stories got out of hand, and the people writing them really wanted their story to be believed above all other stories so they added the damning clause of "WELL IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE MY STORY YOU'LL GO TO A BAD PLACE BUT IF YOU DO YOU'LL GO TO A GOOD PLACE" and it scared everyone into believing it. A few thousand years later and the message has changed to better fit modern society "HE LOVES YOU JUST IGNORE THE REST OF THE BOOK IT IS OUT OF DATE =D"

Also I have absolutely no reason to believe even in a general deity who guides scientific principles into being like the big bang or evolution, for the same reason I have no reason to believe there's an invisible undetectable tree growing out of my head. Atheist now and forever.

edit:

It's not that easy though, because a work as widely popular as the Bible cannot be drastically changed without someone noticing. If the Bible had varied too much from when it was originally written, it would have been noticed.

How many people back then were both bilingual and literate enough to notice? If only a handful, wouldn't human nature lead the translators to tweak things to better serve the culture that they're translating for, to better convince them to believe it? Even if all motives are completely innocent, playing around in babelfish only knowing two of the languages is proof enough that things get garbled unless the very beginning and very ending language is fluently understood by the translator.

I feel like I have to clarify. I do not hate religion or religious people. The contributions to the arts are absolutely monumental, and the sense of community and charity are wonderful. What I hate is simplistic views in modern society where we are all educated enough to question things and follow our own logic. If you can justify to yourself that the stories are all metaphor or whatever, that's fine. If you admit you're not real sure, but you have life experiences that have convinced you, fine. If you insist the earth is 6000 years old because that's what a book tells you (and you only believe the book because mom told you and parents are always right) then you are stubborn and your beliefs are (dare I say?) stupid.

[Metallixs Girl]

I find it funny that Christians preach about God's love for all, but then say that Homosexuals (and lesbians) are an abomination in God's eyes. How can we be his beloved children, and abominations at the same time...

And how about if God loves ALL his children (and the church says that we are ALL his children), then how come when his 'rapture' comes, that only 6600 are going to heaven, and the rest are going to hell?

Some times, I want to walk up to those people at the pro-life centers and 'thank' them. I was going to be an abortion baby, but because MY mum listened and they told her that God will love me no matter what, that they saved me... Just so I can turn out to be the 'Abomination' that they call me now... Guess that God DOESN'T love us all...

Fin~

I can try to answer this. Actually, being gay is not an unforgivable sin, and it was forgiven on the cross just like all the others were. Gays won't go to h... for being gay, but just like everyone else, if you go there, you'd go for hearing the gospel and rejecting it. But just like everything else, men have twisted something to suit their own selves. I think the people of Westboro are wicked, and not of God. But it's the Bible that's led me to this conclusion. If we know the things of God, we'll be able to recognize the things that are not of God and be able to tell the difference.

I have a theory of why being gay is an abomination. Not the person, but the sin itself, and things it leads to. First of all, I'd like to say, that I do not know whether someone is born that way or if it's a choice, though I know we have sin nature (meaning it's natual for us to sin) so it's very possible they are born that way. But God hates Pride, and pride is the opposite of humility. Pride causes rebellion, instead of love. Pride is about I. I'm better, do things My way, etc. Pride is what makes people want to control each other. And I don't know why, but being gay and pride seem like they go hand in hand. They are actually bold with it, as well. It is bold open rebellion to our society. No other people demand respect for something considered sin in the Bible like they do, that I can think of. And I don't mean that all gay people are prideful either, it's just that it can lead to pride, and it apparently has.

I think the lifestyle consumes them, and gay becomes their identity, so they are really trying to protect their identity as a gay person rather than trying to find their identity in Christ, since it conflicts with their gay identity. That might be why it was an abomination, because of how it harms their relationship with God. They'd have to accept it is sin and they might not want to give it up. But I believe there are born-again gay people, and how far along in their walk they are is between them and God. That's just my thoughts on the matter though.

As for the rapture, it never says how many will be raptured, it does not give a number. Everyone who's been born again and are believers in Christ will be raptured. Why did you think it would be 6600?

[Katie]

There is a difference between pride-bragging and pride-self accomplishment. "Gay pride" is extremely new, and back in biblical times I'm pretty sure gay people just wanted to be left alone loving their gay lovers.

[Heald]

The problem with Hell is the concept was largely shoehorned into the Bible and early Christian doctrine by the early Church as a way of reconciling it with religions of the time that did practice a form of an afterlife that was a punishment (Hades, Tartarus etc.) but in no way does it actually have any real theological grounding. It was (and still is, the post above brilliantly demonstrates my point) also used as a device to scare people into following Christianity. I don't believe Hell actually exists even if God actually does.

I honestly think modern-day Christians are silly for believing in Hell like it is some kind of boogie-man, and as a theological concept the whole thing is entirely ridiculous. A Ned Flanders devil is more likely than whatever it is some people think will happen to those who sin after they die.

[Metallixs Girl]

There is a difference between pride-bragging and pride-self accomplishment. "Gay pride" is extremely new, and back in biblical times I'm pretty sure gay people just wanted to be left alone loving their gay lovers.

If that is true, then in Sodom, why were they all outside Lot's door banging on it and threatening him if he didn't send out his angel guests that they may "know" them? They were trying to force their will on the new visitors in town. It says both young and old from all over the city were at Lot's door.

Yes, there is a difference. But Lucifer said "I will be like the Most High meaning he wasn't happy being an angel and wanted to be God. Which of those two Prides was he guilty of? We can be happy for ourselves or someone we know, but that's not the same thing as arrogant pride.

[Lady Vulpix]

I believe there is a higher power but that this higher power (God or any other name you want to use) is not a human being or even an individual in the way that we are. And I believe there is something after death although probably not Heaven and almost certainly not Hell which, as Heald says, was created to scare people into becoming Christian.

The reasons for my beliefs are that the universe is too complex to have been formed by mere chance, and even to have been created within itself; and that something like a soul (consciousness, being or whatever you prefer to call it) can't suddenly turn into nothing when someone dies. Sure, I'm accepting as a rule that nothing turns into nothing, but you have to take something as a fact if you don't want to be completely skeptical (and believing in absolutely nothing doesn't strike me as a nice way to live) so I accept the things that feel right to me.

So, am I religious? Maybe. I'm Jewish, but that's more about the heritage and willingness to follow some traditions than the religion itself. I'm not an atheist and not quite an agnostic either, so I guess we can say I'm somewhat religious. But I'm not willing to do or believe something just because I'm told that I should. I pass everything I see, read, hear or come up with through the filters of my mind and heart, and then choose the ones that I will follow.

-----

As for the discussion about homosexuality, I do not believe it has anything to do with arrogant pride. People may or may not be arrogantly proud regardless of what gender they're attracted to.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

If that is true, then in Sodom, why were they all outside Lot's door banging on it and threatening him if he didn't send out his angel guests that they may "know" them?

The case of Sodom is interesting indeed, but according to my religion teacher, their sin wasn't exactly homosexuality. During ancient times, raping people was used as a punishment, so that's what Lot was so afraid of. Maybe that sorta took this off topic, but I just wanted to point that out.

[Asilynne]

After a while religion doesn't differ that much from a cult, especially in America. I mean, I can live with religion, religious people or even the idea of being religious myself (since I am a christian actually), but I can get my head around people who deny Darwin, evolutiontheory and state that God made everything in seven days? That the world is only 5000 year old? That dinosaurs and humans lived together and that a fucking flood took down the dinosaurs? Seriously, that's just shallow IMO.

Did I miss something at one of my 10 or so different kinds of Christian church I went to growing up? I've never heard of some of the weird shit you just said lol dinosaurs being killed by the flood? 5000 year old earth? Whatever those came from, it's not a typical Christian belief, at least not that I've seen. And the people that don't believe in evolution or that take the seven days thing literally do just that--- take the bible to the extreme literal sense.
Imagine for a moment you are an omnipotent being, you are immortal, how would you describe hundreds of thousands or even billions of years to a primitive people whose lifespan is a tiny fraction of that? If you were immortal, and you've been around for God knows how long ( hrhr) wouldn't a billion or so years seem like a drop in the bucket, or, a day? Compared to the life you've lived in total, it just might. But primitive man can't wrap their head around the concept of a BILLION years, it's like when you teach children, you need to teach them in a way they can grasp. In a way that is also the reason we call God a 'he', a being that far above us probably doesn't need the concept of gender, but humans can't understand that because most of the things we see in our world has two genders, and since males were typically dominant in cultures of the time, of course He would call Himself male. The people that try to say "no Gods a woman!!!" miss this point completely. God is probably neither He nor She, because a being like God is above those distinctions.

I'm not sure where I heard it from, bht I remember the concept of God being described on this way: we are three dimensional beings in a four dimensional world. What if we were to take a living creature that was living in two dimensions and brought them to our world, there would be new concepts, new measurements they wouldn't be able to grasp, being so much more advanced then anything they were used to. The things we could do would seem magical to them, seem impossible, though they are simple to us. I believe the same is true with God. He can do things we can't understand because He is on a higher plane than we are, and while it's far more complicated than bringing a drawing to life, the basic concept is the same.

And I agree with Heald about the Christian fundamentalists. In this day and age we are taught not to judge a whole group of people based on the actions of a few, like racism, sexism, homophobes, and so on. But when it comes to Christianity, and in America political parties, people feel free to lump them all together and say they're all the same, they're all crazy brainwashed disrespectful [insert label here]. one of the main teachings of Christianity is don't judge lest ye be judged, and treat others as you would want to be treated, and while these are Christian teachings I think everyone can benefit from following them. No one is perfect, everyone has flaws, so before you go condemning someone for what you perceive as a flaw you remember that you are just as human as everyone else.

[Magmar]

The case of Sodom sounds like a fairy tale to me, sorry. Two angels walk into a city and the whole town wants to bone them, so God burns it down and turns a guy's wife into salt for looking back on the city? Besides, right after the city burned, Lot and his daughters totally boned in a cave, it's right there in the Bible. I guess incest is not as bad as gay sex ;[

[Metallixs Girl]

I didn't mean to imply that only gay people are prideful, because that's certainly not true.

Lot asked them to come to his house rather than stay in the street at night. The account says nothing about punishment, so I think that's just an idea someone had, but it's not really backed up in the Bible. We know that Sodom had great sin, and men were harassing Lot about "knowing" his guests, and it had something to do with s.. because Lot offered his daughters up rather than harm the people who had come under his roof.

[Bear]

I think one thing I have trouble grasping with science is the idea that, through evolution alone, humans were able to develop from primates who, in their normal form, do not even come close to the cognitive and technical abilities we possess. Evolution provides explanations for all manner of adaptations and changes in life forms, but none are even as close to being as significant as human development. I just find it difficult to believe that primates could evolve into humans that way.

Also, we tend to grasp science more because we are told it is "hard evidence". But really, if you think about it, wouldn't it be just as easy for a society/government to brainwash people into thinking science is real? Even with all the intuitive and logical powers we humans have, we are still subject to errors. In addition, it's reasonable to assume that most any "discovery" can be fabricated in one way or another through our advanced technology. How did we come to discover the process of carbon dating? Wouldn't a brilliant group of scientists simply be able to say "x is true because of y" and we, as less specifically educated folk, would believe it out of ignorance? Ignorance being used in its literal definition, mind you, as simply "lack of knowledge".

The points I offered previously in this thread were just to spark debate and conversation. My faith and beliefs are based on my personal life experiences, which have led me to believe that I am on the right path, and that there is a God. The simple and blunt fact is that no, there is no 100% infallible evidence to prove God does exist. There is also no 100% infallible evidence to prove God doesn't exist. Knowledge of this fact, coupled with certain events in my life and what I've learned, has made my faith what it is today.

[Lady Vulpix]

Bear, science exists (I should know, I'm doing scientific research) but that doesn't mean everything every scientist says or publishes is true. More over, the vast majority of scientists do not believe that everything other scientists say is true (I wonder if there's any who does), and those who allow themselves no doubts about their theories are not following the scientific method correctly. In order to formulate a valid theory, you have to be as aware as possible of your assumptions (which always exist) and there's always a chance of some of those assumptions being wrong.

More often than not, physicists, chemists, biologists, geologists, etc. (even computer scientists, and sometimes even mathematicians) know that there is an error in their results because it's impossible for humans to perceive and measure everything correctly, and because there are usually unknown variables in play. They try their best to reduce the errors, but it's impossible to eliminate them completely. Science can be very useful in helping create new things and improve people's lives (or ruin them too, but I'd rather do the former) but any scientist who claims to have found an absolute truth is an arrogant liar.

[Metallixs Girl]

The case of Sodom sounds like a fairy tale to me, sorry. Two angels walk into a city and the whole town wants to bone them, so God burns it down and turns a guy's wife into salt for looking back on the city? Besides, right after the city burned, Lot and his daughters totally boned in a cave, it's right there in the Bible. I guess incest is not as bad as gay sex ;[

The Bible tells people's sins to show that the people God chose as His prophets and those he saved from stuff in the OT were human, just like everyone else. Yes, it does say that, because that is what they did. Just because someone in the Bible sins does not mean the Bible condones it. It lists no sins for Daniel but it does say he prayed for forgiveness so he knew that he sinned. But the Bible shows that all have sinned, including those who God spoke to. But they all believed.

[Metallixs Girl]

Bear, science exists (I should know, I'm doing scientific research) but that doesn't mean everything every scientist says or publishes is true. More over, the vast majority of scientists do not believe that everything other scientists say is true (I wonder if there's any who does), and those who allow themselves no doubts about their theories are not following the scientific method correctly. In order to formulate a valid theory, you have to be as aware as possible of your assumptions (which always exist) and there's always a chance of some of those assumptions being wrong.

More often than not, physicists, chemists, biologists, geologists, etc. (even computer scientists, and sometimes even mathematicians) know that there is an error in their results because it's impossible for humans to perceive and measure everything correctly, and because there are usually unknown variables in play. They try their best to reduce the errors, but it's impossible to eliminate them completely. Science can be very useful in helping create new things and improve people's lives (or ruin them too, but I'd rather do the former) but any scientist who claims to have found an absolute truth is an arrogant liar.

I'm actually fascinated by Science because it does teach us about creation, and it confirms my faith a lot of times. But I think it can be abused. I hated Global Warming in the 90s because everyone was using it to instill fear in children. I was in the fourth grade and a teacher told my class that when we were 30, there would be no oil left on Earth. Captain Planet said you couldn't go outside in 10 years without sunscreen or you'd fry, or something like that. I think that was horrible for them to do that to us, you should never EVER put that kind of burden on little children. It seemed to be everywhere. I'm not worried about it now, but that just wasn't right.