Mr Popo's Happy Funtimes Lounge (Dragonball SU Lounge)

[Master of Paradox]

Rudy, I have to call foul on that last post.

1. It's just not fair to have Shitagi godmode his way into defeating Van without asking me. I might have stepped a bit too far by stating Shitagi would likely die, but you could have at least let me do Van's defeat post. By just saying "OH I BEAT UP VAN WITH MY ARM BROKE AND SPITTING BLOOD", you insult me and my character, and cheat pretty badly.

2. You know the real reason Victoria's dead? Because her presence made everything too easy for Shitagi. Now you've got what I assume is the Guardian of the Earth coming down to heal Shitagi's wounds, boost his power level, and tuck him into bed at night. Nothing's changed.

3. How many more deus ex machinas are you going to pull out before you finally let anything permanent happen to Shitagi? This is DBZ. To quote Blade in a recent IM conversation, "Shitagi 'dying' basically means nothing more than a year in space getting even stronger than he is now."

I am more offended than I should be by your post and how it weakens Van to make Shitagi look better. I request changes.

[Master Rudy]

Rudy, I have to call foul on that last post.

1. It's just not fair to have Shitagi godmode his way into defeating Van without asking me. I might have stepped a bit too far by stating Shitagi would likely die, but you could have at least let me do Van's defeat post. By just saying "OH I BEAT UP VAN WITH MY ARM BROKE AND SPITTING BLOOD", you insult me and my character, and cheat pretty badly.

2. You know the real reason Victoria's dead? Because her presence made everything too easy for Shitagi. Now you've got what I assume is the Guardian of the Earth coming down to heal Shitagi's wounds, boost his power level, and tuck him into bed at night. Nothing's changed.

3. How many more deus ex machinas are you going to pull out before you finally let anything permanent happen to Shitagi? This is DBZ. To quote Blade in a recent IM conversation, "Shitagi 'dying' basically means nothing more than a year in space getting even stronger than he is now."

I am more offended than I should be by your post and how it weakens Van to make Shitagi look better. I request changes.

You're offended? Fair enough....post has already been deleted since I really don't want to deal with the headache of trying to edit around it when all I'm trying to do is have a good time RPing. To be honest however MoP you aren't the only one unhappy with a recent post. I had a few issues with yours as well. Let's get some things straight first.

The real reason Victoria is dead is because she made things too easy for Shitagi? I suggest you re-read this whole RPG in regards to the posts I've made as her. In paticular I want you to focus on just before Shitagi went into the Time Chamber. In case it's not obvious I'll just come out and say it: I've had plans for her death from the start. Don't believe me? Just ask Blade. Before we even had the reboot I told him I had it in mind......I just didn't know the how or the why. My issue is the fact that you seem to imply Blade had her killed off solely because things were "too easy" for me.

There's also the issue of Van turning on Shitagi right then and there. It's like kicking a guy while he's down and frankly due to Shitagi's injuries and weakened power level compared to Van I feel like I you didn't give me many options short of one of us dying.

Finally as I've already said there is your own post as well. Let's set aside the whole "Van goes psycho" aspect of it for a moment. I was simply going to roll with this next one but now I'm going to bring a minor issue I had with it up.

[Van Osiku]

The battle was over, and Van was not sure what had happened. And now this... boy, there was no other word for it, was giving orders and making demands. Who did he think he was?

Shitagi Summers
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I started to hover in the air but it quickly became apparent that I wouldn't be able to do so under my own power. Van however was quick to get one of my arms over his shoulder and help me into the air. "Ok then.....Shitagi. I just hope you aren't planning on going after that guy. You really aren't in good shape right now." Anger started to flood back into me but I kept my cool. The last thing I needed to do was get worked up and possibly make my injuries worse. "I wish I could go after him but I'd never make it. Then there's the matter of the Dragon Balls. However until the rest of my friends can get together I dare not go anywhere near that animal he's keeping on his ship." At this moment I had another coughing fit. After that it was starting to get a bit harder to breathe. "Well do you have a plan then?" Van asked me. "Y-yeah" I said as I started to feel somewhat lightheaded. "We I've got to get to West City. He's.....destroyed it. However if I'm going to live.....it just might be my only chance. I just.....need help getting there."

To be honest the "we got to get to West City" part was a typo that I missed and didn't catch until I copied that part of the post over. Setting that aside just read that whole post again. I'll give you the "giving orders" part as it was a typo I didn't catch until just now. However at what point is Shitagi rude? At what point is he making demands? Retasu in paticular is much more likely to demand something than Shitagi is. Aside from the "we got to get to West City" typo more than anything Shitagi is simply asking for HELP! Hell before that as beat up as he is he even managed to give off a weak smile and say "Call me Shitagi." If you can point out the rudeness then by all means do so.....I'm failing to see it.

As for the claims of godmoding that last post I'm a reasonable guy MoP. Perhaps I did push a bit hard on that last post but frankly I was a bit miffed because I honestly was not seeing a way out short of one of us getting killed. You claim it's been endless deus ex machina with me? Well I hate to break it to you but Dragon Ball is pretty much BUILT on it! When the situation looks most hopeless something happens out of seemingly nowhere to push things back in favor of the heroes:

-Goku/Gohan ALWAYS showing up at the last minute
-Gohan regrowing his tail during the battle with Vegeta
-Goku's first Super Saiyan transformation
-Vegeta showing up to fight 19 when Goku's heart virus strikes
-Gohan's trasformation to Super Saiyan 2......and it's not because of his family and friends on the verge of getting killed. It's when Android 16 of all characters is destroyed.

That being said everyone in Dragon Ball who has had their moment in the spotlight as the main hero also share one thing in common.....their luck eventually runs out. Eventually they either get overpowered or killed but in the end the cycle repeats itself.

I feel Shitagi is far from the god mode sue you believe him to be. His first battle with Rothax ended with him getting beat pretty soundly. He's had setbacks in his training and despite having a brillant mind for science he's made what could be considered downright foolish mistakes. Hell I had the Spirit Bomb post in mind for the better part of a year. However rather than flat out go out and say "Hey it worked! I CAN USE A SPIRIT BOMB!" I left the end of the post open in the event that Heald deemed it a bit much. If the answer turned out to be no then nothing is really affected at all. If it was yes then so be it.....Shitagi can use a Spirit Bomb but the one thing you have to remember with that skill are the drawbacks: it takes too damn long and leaves him defenseless. In a one on one battle it's fairly useless.

Personally if Heald or Blade felt I was going too far on something then they would be well within their rights to tell me to back off. When there has been any kind of issue at all they've been the first ones to speak up. In fact there have been cases where I actually HAVE made compromises with the others on some issues and vice versa.

In role playing there's give and take with posts. I can be reasonable and change things if someone feels it goes a bit far (and have even deleted my last post). However bear in mind that you've kinda backed my character into a corner and that short of outside interference (which is very unlikely at this point as everyone is either engaged or in hiding) or Van suddenly getting out of that state before Shitagi is hurt more that it's likely that Shitagi isn't walking away.

The bottom line is that while I can be reasonable about things you have to look at it from my perspective as well. You are complaining about me not consulting you on the matter yet you essentially did the same thing to me. Having Van go psycho and putting Shitagi into a situation that is highly likely to get him killed in his current state without talking to me first is just as bad in my book. In fact in hindsight it's gonna be damn hard to get Shitagi out of that situation as I'm starting to feel like anything I could do is going to be an asspull either in my book or yours. I at least had the decency to have Shitagi come out of that short battle in far worse shape than he entered. Him getting out of that fight without more injuries would have been an asspull in my book. However apparently Shitagi getting away at all is an asspull in yours. As a result I say let's agree to disagree on the matter. However I'm going to respectfully request that we both take several steps back: I've deleted my post and to be honest I feel you should do the same. There will be plenty of time yet to come for Van to go loony on us again ^_~

Let's try to come up with a decent solution here because the last thing I want to do is fight over something that we all should be enjoying and having fun with :-/

EDIT-Upon rereading it I've edited my post as it came off as far more hostile than I intended it to be......I too am a bit worked up as I feel it's a real shitty situation to put Shitagi in without asking first. However as I've said before I'd like to work something out.

[Heald]

I'll step in while I can.

Whilst I don't particularly mind how you two resolve it, can you please do it with respect to the other person's character and how the other person might feel?

Now, in regards to the current situation, Rudy put a certain level of faith in other people by leaving his character completely defenceless, much like I have left mine basically in the hands of Asi and Kuro at the moment. MoP, your post, especially if you have failed to contacted Rudy outside of the RPG in order to at least seek his thoughts on the matter, seem to have basically put Shitagi in a no-win situation against Rudy's wishes. Granted, we have been talking of taking it to the next level, to have characters die off and such, but at the end of the day, it is still the decision of that character's player to decide if and when he/she dies.

Now, unless another character (at this stage, most likely Basawe or Hammer) steps in, since they are currently on their way somewhere and could be convinced to change course somehow, then it looks likely Shitagi is fucked. Evidently, this is not in line with Rudy's wishes. I suggest you perhaps revise the situation or at least give Shitagi some kind of out, otherwise it is unlikely any kind of satisfactory resolution will be made.

---

Bear, I'm not entirely sure what the currently sort of power levels are riding at at the moment (we seem to be in the process of ditching them) but bear in mind that power levels of 100000 upwards were not seen until the Ginyu force saga, and they were supposedly the elite of the universe. I think since we are in the process of ditching power levels, let us just say that Hammer is more or less on the same level as those he entered the HTC with, although he can obviously power up (i.e. for final attacks and such).

As for King Kai, well, he lives in a magic realm where death doesn't particularly have a meaning, so it wouldn't be completely ridiculous for him to have gotten himself a new planet at some point, and maybe his life back. I don't know. It's not a particularly important point.

[Master Rudy]

Rudy, you DID kinda step into this yourself: You knew before your last post that Van has some split-personality deal that makes him go apeshit around Saiyans (You saw it when he turned and attacked Kura out of nowhere before Chita showed up.). And yet you responded to the matter by not only giving Shitagi some potentially-fatal injuries following up Rothax's departure, but also by having him first literally say in big fatass bold letters that he is Vegeta during the fight. Vegeta is a pretty popular name in the not-at-all-small circle of anti-Saiyan races in the DBZverse.

Meh....I got to say yes and no on that matter Blade. I myself as a person/writer know of Van's issues. Shitagi however does not have every last detail in regards to why Van snapped. All he knows is the minor little tidbit he heard from Zaito. I myself know but Shitagi doesn't.....it's kind of the same idea involved with D&D/tabletop RPG's in which the GM gets involved with a player character. A good GM will stick to the rules despite it being his campaign. That in itself is sometimes very hard to do when you have advanced knowledge of what's coming. A bad GM will avoid traps, encounters and get all the best loot with little or no effort on their part. In the case of traps if you do EXACTLY what they just did then expect to trigger it without fail. I've played with both types. Shouldn't take much to figure out the second type is the one that isn't fun to play with. Anyway for me to play and react to what I know BEFORE my character knows it would be really overstepping the boundries of what is and isn't acceptable. It doesn't matter if I was the GM or just a player. If I have advanced knowledge of something I should do the best I can to avoid reacting to it in character. And let's be honest here.....even if I DIDN'T use the name Vegeta in character then something else would have likely made Van snap. Shitagi is wearing Goku's kanji and the royal crest. Considering Van's got quite the history I've no doubt he's seen at least one of the two symbols and would have eventually made the connection. Also don't forget that Shitagi has his tail as well. In fact on a somewhat unrelated note it's such an obvious sign that he's got Saiyan blood that I'm still very confused over the fact that people want to call him, Victoria (or any Saiyan in general) a human. It'd be an understandable mistake on the part of characters in the original anime if they didn't know the history of Goku and company. Not so much in this RPG.

Hypothetically let's say I did everything I could to have Shitagi avoid exposing his Saiyan herritage to Van knowing that it could make Van go nuts at any moment. I myself obviously know this but Shitagi didn't know the details for Van "not being himself" at that point. I have no doubt that several of you would call me out on that one.

As for the injuries Blade are you seriously calling me out for giving Shitagi a potentially serious injury in that battle? I myself am trying to avoid power levels at this point but the bottom line is that had I still been using them it'd be Shitagi around 30-35K against Rothax who is easily over 100K. Plus you yourself have said that he can go OVER 300K? If I had Shitagi come out of it in pretty decent shape I've no doubt you'd be calling foul over that. Instead it almost seems like you are essentially calling foul over the fact that I shouldn't have made Shitagi injured due to the fact that Van could go crazy at the drop of a hat.

I'll admit that the combination of things in recent posts as Shitagi has put him in a very bad situation. However when I first started to make those posts the last thing I even considered happening was the fact that Van could turn on me at any moment. When you take the RPG as a whole into account it's still a very recent development and as a result I doubt it's the first thing that comes to anyone's mind when they think of Van.

Go ahead.....call me an idiot for not considering what could potentially happen with Van. As you put it Blade I made have "steped into this myself" but hear me out: if I didn't have Shitagi come away with some kind of injury (especially since things are suppose to be getting far more serious) you'd have no doubt said something about it. I'm not even going to get any deeper in regards to Van's apparent issue with Saiyans, Shitagi not knowing this, ect. All I'm going to say is that it's happened once so far. Had it happened more than once and I went out of my way to do things to avoid triggering his hatred of Saiyans when Shitagi doesn't know these things then I have no doubt you'd be bringing that up.

Overall I'm really feeling like this situation is quickly becoming a major case of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" :-/

Now, in regards to the current situation, Rudy put a certain level of faith in other people by leaving his character completely defenceless, much like I have left mine basically in the hands of Asi and Kuro at the moment. MoP, your post, especially if you have failed to contacted Rudy outside of the RPG in order to at least seek his thoughts on the matter, seem to have basically put Shitagi in a no-win situation against Rudy's wishes. Granted, we have been talking of taking it to the next level, to have characters die off and such, but at the end of the day, it is still the decision of that character's player to decide if and when he/she dies.

Now, unless another character (at this stage, most likely Basawe or Hammer) steps in, since they are currently on their way somewhere and could be convinced to change course somehow, then it looks likely Shitagi is fucked. Evidently, this is not in line with Rudy's wishes. I suggest you perhaps revise the situation or at least give Shitagi some kind of out, otherwise it is unlikely any kind of satisfactory resolution will be made.

I want to make one thing clear Heald (and clear to everyone for that matter). I do not have problems with getting killed in RPG's. I've been the guy that's died first (or close to it) in previous DB RPG's before. Obviously I had no issues with Victoria since her getting killed was my plan from the moment she came into play. Therefore minimal communication between me and Blade as the moment drew closer wasn't much of an issue.

In regards to the situation with Shitagi/Van however there was zero communication. I've already covered my feelings on what would have happened if Shitagi wasn't injured, on what could have happened if I played to avoid triggering Van's transformation, ect. The main reason I even considered making the rib injury more serious was because Blade flat out had Shitagi using higher levels of Kaio-Ken once he was injured (not blaming you Blade.....just pointing things out ^_~). All things considered it would have been totally in Shitagi's character to fight at a level that would have made Shitagi's injury worse for two reasons: he'll do what it takes to win and he'll sometimes do things without thinking about the long term. He's gotten better with the Kaio-Ken due to his time in the HTC but considering the circumstances of that battle just trying to stay alive in the short term and risking higher levels would have made him not think about the long term.

Now if I hadn't laid the groundwork for Shitagi being in trouble by making the internal bleeding worse thanks to Kaio-Ken overuse then I'd have no problems with what happened. However this whole situation pretty much stemmed and blew up from a lack of communication and Shitagi winding up in what boils down to a "fight or die" situation. I tried to handle it the best I could giving the circumstances but apparently it still was disrespectful to MoP's character as it was "insulting" and "cheating" :-/


With all that out of the way I have this to say: the longer we keep going back and forth like this then the longer it's going to take to come to a decent compromise (not to mention the previous heated disagreements have no doubt made a few people reclutant to post). You want my opinion on the matter? I'll say both me and MoP are equally at fault.

MoP is at fault for essentially putting Shitagi in a no-win situation without talking to me first. I'll be the first to admit that I don't always consult folks folks myself when I suddenly get a case of "HEY! Wouldn't this be awesome?!" I'm quick to edit and ajust things however and the one thing I don't do is put the lives of people's characters at risk. In some extreme cases I weight a character's abilities and what I know about them before taking an action. In these cases I may act without asking but anything I do is not irreversable. Recently I had Shitagi blind third form Rothax in one eye. From Blade's description however I gathered that losing one eye would be very minor due to his other heightened senses. Plus as we all know by now he's like Frieza: when he transforms he regenerates his injuries. Now unless Blade has changed something recently I do remember way back near the start of this RPG that he mentioned that Rothax has FIVE forms. Therefore he can regenerate that eye. If he has reconned it to three forms it's still no problem: Vegeta lost an eye in the Saiyan Saga after all and managed to regenerate it in a healing tank.

In regards to me I myself am at fault for leaving the door open in the first place. In this case the key issue on my part and main trigger for what happened in the first place was Shitagi embracing his family history and using the name Vegeta. If I didn't do that then I've no doubt the royal crest would have come into play instead. In hindsight those are easily the two things that would trigger Van's evil side the most.

With all that said I say that we shouldn't push the matter anymore and point fingers. In my opinion the best thing to do is give MoP a chance to respond towards all this and start working towards a compromise so that we can keep the story flowing and avoid another stall out.