2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Gavin Luper]

I still maintain that a free, universal, taxpayer-funded health care system like our Medicare would be far, far more beneficial than a compulsory private-health insurance purchasing scheme; the latter just doesn't seem fair to people who can't afford it, as Asi put it.

[Roy Karrde]

I still maintain that a free, universal, taxpayer-funded health care system like our Medicare would be far, far more beneficial than a compulsory private-health insurance purchasing scheme; the latter just doesn't seem fair to people who can't afford it, as Asi put it.

The problem with that is that as we are finding out with our own Medicare which is basically what you described. It creates massive headaches with doctors who have problems getting their money. At that point they either stop accepting Medicare, drop Medicare patients entirely, or leave the field.

[Gavin Luper]

The problem with that is that as we are finding out with our own Medicare which is basically what you described. It creates massive headaches with doctors who have problems getting their money. At that point they either stop accepting Medicare, drop Medicare patients entirely, or leave the field.

I'll be honest and say I'm not well-versed on how the Medicare system works here, but your post doesn't really make sense to me. Can you explain it further? Because here it's for every citizen and permanent resident. You pay upfront for a doctor's visit but Medicare will subsidise half of it back to you, the patient. But the doctor gets all their money upfront. They don't have the option of dropping patients as far as I'm aware (how is that even ethical?). So I'm really confused what your post is all about.

[Roy Karrde]

I'll be honest and say I'm not well-versed on how the Medicare system works here, but your post doesn't really make sense to me. Can you explain it further? Because here it's for every citizen and permanent resident. You pay upfront for a doctor's visit but Medicare will subsidise half of it back to you, the patient. But the doctor gets all their money upfront. They don't have the option of dropping patients as far as I'm aware (how is that even ethical?). So I'm really confused what your post is all about.

Basically doctors have to go through the Government to get their money back from Medicare patients. Because of the red tape and the Government's unwillingness to actually pay it out, and to make sure the doctors are not scamming them. It takes longer and longer for them to actually get paid, and at the same time they are usually getting paid less than Private Insurance. As such doctors are looking at the cost and are having to drop patients or refuse them because of all the problems.

Here is a good article on what is happening.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993462778328019.html

[Gavin Luper]

Basically doctors have to go through the Government to get their money back from Medicare patients. Because of the red tape and the Government's unwillingness to actually pay it out, and to make sure the doctors are not scamming them. It takes longer and longer for them to actually get paid, and at the same time they are usually getting paid less than Private Insurance. As such doctors are looking at the cost and are having to drop patients or refuse them because of all the problems.

Here is a good article on what is happening.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123993462778328019.html

Cool, I understand the American system a little more once again.

What I'm saying is: change your system to the Australian one. What is the problem with the system we use? It means universal health care subsidises people's medical expenses and doctors get their money upfront. Win-win.

I know you take issue with what Obama proposes. But would you take issue with the system we have? It's pretty damn fair and pretty damn workable.

[Dark Sage]

No-one has posted here for a while, but things have changed a bit in the GOP camp. With Cain's campaign now rocked by scandal and Perry falling flat on his face and making a complete fool of himself last night, it seems safe to say that Romney will be the nominee for President.

My prediction: This will be an ugly contest, and will be close in the Electoral College... But people will wise up enough for Obama to win 270.

After all, if anyone that the GOP is offering could have beaten Obama, McCain would have handed him his lungs.

[Heald]

It's sorry to see the GOP is such a fucking dismal state. Obama has had a torrid 4 years for the public's perspective but each of the GOP nominees seems to be falling over each to see who can make the next big gaffe. It doesn't help that the MSM really doesn't want the GOP winning (apart from Fox, but well that's always been the case).

Which is a shame, because frankly Obama has been diabolical. Would McCain/Palin have been better? Probably not. At least Obama had the potential for a good 4 years and he fucking blew it. Romney looks like the safe bet, and I'd love to see him win, but I just can't see that happening.

[kurai]

Relevant to topic at hand.

[Dark Sage]

Would McCain/Palin have been better? Probably not.

I had some respect for McCain, but it went down the tubes when he choose that stupid woman as his running mate. I still stand by my belief that Palin was a tool to gain votes from women who were supporting Hillary. McCain clearly had little faith in the voters' intelligence.

And now, his foolish choice has created a monster. Palin simply doesn't know that her fifteen minutes are up, and the whole Tea Party was spawned becaused of her. It's her fault that clowns like Bachman are driving us crazy.

Obama in 2012. The Sane Choice.

[Heald]

I actually hugely respected McCain when he was a Senator, but the Presidential race led him to drop several of his principles to attract voters and I never felt he would have been a capable leader (unfortunately, good politicians rarely make good leaders). Plus, it's a stressful job and he was old. As much as I dislike Obama, the fact is we could have had President Palin if the vote and McCain's health went the other way, and I don't consider that a good thing.

[Dark Sage]

I actually hugely respected McCain when he was a Senator, but the Presidential race led him to drop several of his principles to attract voters and I never felt he would have been a capable leader (unfortunately, good politicians rarely make good leaders). Plus, it's a stressful job and he was old. As much as I dislike Obama, the fact is we could have had President Palin if the vote and McCain's health went the other way, and I don't consider that a good thing.

Tell me about it.

Every time I see Palin on television, my heart skips a beat at the thought that this complete and utter fool could have been one step away from the Presidency.

[MToolen]

Politics is an issue that I feel interested in from time to time, until the sheer inanity (or insanity; your pick) of it all forces me to step back into the real world. I'm not sure what party really suits my needs best: my profession (teaching), being mostly in unions, would have me lean to Democrats, but my wife's family (military) would almost have her leaning the other way.

I voted for Obama in the previous election. Like other people have noted, I was more scared of a possible Palin presidency than anything. Besides that, being in Illinois, the state was well in his hand anyway. Still, I knew straight in what I was getting into: that the hope and change promised would take much different forms than what any of us could predict.

And yet I feel myself in the same boat for this coming election. I'm not just scared of one person. The Republican candidates are all crazy in their own ways. I don't feel I could trust any of them to be President just yet.

[Roy Karrde]

and the whole Tea Party was spawned becaused of her.

Umm no I believe that was Rick Santelli with his infamous tea party rant.

Obama in 2012. The Sane Choice.

Between Solyndra, and Fast and Furious it is more like "The Criminal Choice"

Every time I see Palin on television, my heart skips a beat at the thought that this complete and utter fool could have been one step away from the Presidency.

As opposed to Biden? Really?... Really? I mean we can disagree about Palin being a good choice from being the vice president, but Biden is no bigger a screw up than Palin.

I don't see what is really the problem now with the field as we get down to two choices. Romney more than likely is going to win, and from the looks of it win the White House as well. But Gingrich is holding his own and has shown himself in the debates to be excellent on the issues and his grasp of history.

[Dark Sage]

If Obama is a criminal for Fast and Furious, then G.W. Bush is a war criminal for use of an interrogation technique that is recognized by the Geneva Convantion as a form of torture, and should be handed over to the Hague for trial.

Edit: By the same notion, Reagan was a traitor for giving weapons to Iran.

[Roy Karrde]

If Obama is a criminal for Fast and Furious, then G.W. Bush is a war criminal for use of an interrogation technique that is recognized by the Geneva Convantion as a form of torture, and should be handed over to the Hague for trial.

Edit: By the same notion, Reagan was a traitor for giving weapons to Iran.

Alright maybe I should be clear, Obama, or some of those in his administration, are criminals by U.S. law. And more than likely some of them will be seen in trial, or extradited to Mexico for trial before all of this settles.

[Dark Sage]

I could get into a discussion on how unlikely that is, but I'd much rather let you Republicabns live with your delusions and support the clowns running for the GOP ticket. It's funny, after all.

[Roy Karrde]

I could get into a discussion on how unlikely that is, but I'd much rather let you Republicabns live with your delusions and support the clowns running for the GOP ticket. It's funny, after all.

Sure delusions, I assume that Mexico's demands for extraditions is part of the Republican delusions?

http://www.examiner.com/political-tr...-as-gunrunners

Or the Congressional Probes going on into both Solyndra and Fast and Furious?

Mind you Mexico has more than a case for extraditions, those in the Obama Administration willingly allowed guns to be given to the Mexican Cartels that not only killed a US Citizen, but killed numerous Mexican citizens. You cannot wipe that blood off your hands so easily.

[Dark Sage]

And you actually think that the Justice Department will, indeed agree to extradition?

Uh-huh... yep... Sure... They'll agree to extradite Americans to a country where they'd never get a fair trial... Sure they would...

[Roy Karrde]

And you actually think that the Justice Department will, indeed agree to extradition?

Uh-huh... yep... Sure... They'll agree to extradite Americans to a country where they'd never get a fair trial... Sure they would...

Obama does want the Latino vote, and hearing all about the Obama Administration allowing guns to get into the hands that have killed thousands of Mexican citizens during election season is poison. I am sure the Republicans have the Spanish Language campaign ads already written.

As should be known by now, Obama will do anything to win, even if it means giving U.S. citizens to Mexico for the horrible actions they have committed to keep the Latino's from sitting on their collective butts on election day.

And of course lets not forget, Mexico extradites to the U.S.

http://www.chron.com/news/nation-wor...nt-1613328.php

[Dark Sage]

The GOP will not get the Latino vote if Theodore Roosevelt comes back from the dead to run on their ticket.

Lincoln, possibly, but with any living Republican, Obama's got their vote pretty much in the bag.

[Roy Karrde]

The GOP will not get the Latino vote if Theodore Roosevelt comes back from the dead to run on their ticket.

Lincoln, possibly, but with any living Republican, Obama's got their vote pretty much in the bag.

Oh the GOP doesn't have to get the vote, they just have to make sure that the Obama Administration's actions are seen as so vial, so disgusting, so against Mexico, that they stay home on election day.

[Dark Sage]

Boy Roy, keep it up, this is fun.

The GOP candidates are making sure that their supports do exactly that.

Cain is caught in a sexual harrassment scandal that he won't admit to.

Kerry couldn't remember part of his own deficit reduction plan.

We find out now that Gingrich took contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; this is the guy who wanted Obama to return the contributions he got from the same people.

If I was a Republican, I'd be ashamed to show my face on Election Day, no matter which of these clowns the Convention chose.

By all means, try to defend your party, Roy. This is FUN.

[Roy Karrde]

Boy Roy, keep it up, this is fun.

The GOP candidates are making sure that their supports do exactly that.

Guess you have surrendered the Mexico topic.

Cain is caught in a sexual harrassment scandal that he won't admit to.

Got any proof?

Kerry couldn't remember part of his own deficit reduction plan.

And rebounded by making a joke out of it in the following days.

We find out now that Gingrich took contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac; this is the guy who wanted Obama to return the contributions he got from the same people.

Sure and lets compare Gingrich's contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to Obama working with the rest of the Democrats in the Senate to make sure that Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac do not get fixed to prevent the mortgage melt down. If the Democrats want to bring up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, they can, but then they have to answer why they haven't reformed it after the crisis, and why they blocked the reform before the crisis.

If I was a Republican, I'd be ashamed to show my face on Election Day, no matter which of these clowns the Convention chose.

By all means, try to defend your party, Roy. This is FUN.

Keep trying, by the way I havn't noticed you mentioning Romney.

[Dark Sage]

I haven't surrendered the Mexican topic.

Since you say that Obama will turn the guilty parties over to the Mexican authorities (which I doubt), are you not implying that Obama himself is innocent of this crime?

[Roy Karrde]

I haven't surrendered the Mexican topic.

Since you say that Obama will turn the guilty parties over to the Mexican authorities (which I doubt), are you not implying that Obama himself is innocent of this crime?

So far we have no idea how far up the corruption went. We know the White House was contacted about Fast and Furious, but the White House needs to allow a transparent investigation of the entire process with who knew what, including the President. That is.. if they have nothing to hide.

[Dark Sage]

That may be the smartest thing you've said yet.

And that needs to be done before the Justice Department can even consider extradition. Even so, if it is determined that anyone in the White House did anything wrong, they will more than likely face American justice, not a court in Mexico.

After all, like you just said when I told you about the scandal involving Cain: "Got any proof" that Obama was involved?

[Roy Karrde]

That may be the smartest thing you've said yet.

And that needs to be done before the Justice Department can even consider extradition. Even so, if it is determined that anyone in the White House did anything wrong, they will more than likely face American justice, not a court in Mexico.

You do realize that the Justice Department is involved in the corruption correct? As it happened under their watch. And of course they can keep the criminals in the U.S. for trial, but not only will that destroy relations with Mexico, but Obama will have to answer why they are not being extradited to Mexico, when Mexico extradites to the U.S.

After all, like you just said when I told you about the scandal involving Cain: "Got any proof" that Obama was involved?

We have emails linking it to the White House, that is far more than anything that has been presented with Cain.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/sep...-guns-20110902

[Dark Sage]

You do realize that the Justice Department is involved in the corruption correct? As it happened under their watch.

You know, of course, that the Justice Department is in charge of deciding extradition requests, right? They weigh the case, decide the circumstances, decide whether the accused has been fairly accused, and decides whether the accused will get fair due process if tried in the country requesting the extradition. If they don't think so, then no extradition.

[Roy Karrde]

You know, of course, that the Justice Department is in charge of deciding extradition requests, right? They weigh the case, decide the circumstances, decide whether the accused has been fairly accused, and decides whether the accused will get fair due process if tried in the country requesting the extradition. If they don't think so, then no extradition.

Of course just noting that many if not all the criminals in the investigation more than likely originated from the Justice Department.

[Dark Sage]

By the way, that news story you provided a link to does not seem to indicate a formal extradition request, at least not a proper one. No names of the crimnals sought on the request (if it exists) are given, no statement is quoted by the Mexican ambassador to the United States, and the Department of State (the place where all such requests must first be sent to) is not even mentioned. I tend to think it was nothing more than an angry statement by a Mexican politician.

[Roy Karrde]

By the way, that news story you provided a link to does not seem to indicate a formal extradition request, at least not a proper one. No names of the crimnals sought on the request (if it exists) are given, no statement is quoted by the Mexican ambassador to the United States, and the Department of State (the place where all such requests must first be sent to) is not even mentioned. I tend to think it was nothing more than an angry statement by a Mexican politician.

Actually I was looking for this story from two days ago which is more up to date on the situation.

Mexico's attorney general says she has asked the United States to extradite six people suspected of providing guns to drug cartels.

Marisela Morales tells Congress that three people are being held in Texas and three in California.

She says two U.S. citizens were being held in Mexico on similar charges. She provided no details in Wednesday's statement and did not mention Operation Fast and Furious, in which U.S. officials followed suspected "straw" buyers of guns heading to Mexico instead of immediately arresting them.

She said one of the cases originated in Madera, California. US officials said this month that two men were being held on suspicion of smuggling .22-caliber rifles into Mexico in a case unrelated to drug cartels.

http://news.yahoo.com/mexico-asks-us...195621577.html

[Dark Sage]

Roy, I doubt any of those people are top-ranking members of the Justice Department or the Obama Administration. I mean, the way you were talking, you were suggesting that someone in the government was going to go to jail.

Sure, it's much more possible that some crooked cop would be arrested. But until proof of who was ultimately behind it is found, if any ever is, I don't think anyone in the Justice Department if going to go to prison.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, I doubt any of those people are top-ranking members of the Justice Department or the Obama Administration. I mean, the way you were talking, you were suggesting that someone in the government was going to go to jail.

Sure, it's much more possible that some crooked cop would be arrested. But until proof of who was ultimately behind it is found, if any ever is, I don't think anyone in the Justice Department if going to go to prison.

So far they have gotten the low level agents and straw buyers, those that authorized it, those in the Justice Department and the Obama Administration are currently being investigated by Congress. They are not willingly going to come out and admit wrong doing. Congress will have to drag them kicking and screaming out of either the Justice Department or the White House and force them into the light of day.

[Dark Sage]

And when the GOP has its most disastrous year ever in 2012, Congress will be out of their hands, and no-one will even remember it. You just wait, Roy...

Come next November, this clown car is going off a cliff.

[Roy Karrde]

And when the GOP has its most disastrous year ever in 2012, Congress will be out of their hands, and no-one will even remember it. You just wait, Roy...

Come next November, this clown car is going off a cliff.

Sure mind if I quote you on that? I love to replay that come election time. I mean with the Democrats having to defend far more seats than Republicans in the Senate, to the point many believe the Senate is lost to the Democrats. And with a failure in the White House. It's going to be hard as hell for the Democrats to have a good year.

[Dark Sage]

Yep, you can quote me on that. Can I quote you?

[Roy Karrde]

Yep, you can quote me on that. Can I quote you?

Sure but I am not making any predictions. If you notice my statements are filled with "Looks like" and "Hard as hell" I do not assume something is a sure thing when it comes to elections.

[Dark Sage]

I notice you aren't quoting the poll that puts Obama against the "generic GOP candidate" any more.

Know why? Because he's leading in that poll now.

He's also leading in each poll I've seen where it's him against one of the GOP candidates. Romney, Perry, Cain... All of them.

And while the majority of Americans say he doesn't deserve a second term, the majority also says they would prefer him to any GOP contender.

[Roy Karrde]

I notice you aren't quoting the poll that puts Obama against the "generic GOP candidate" any more.

Know why? Because he's leading in that poll now.

He's also leading in each poll I've seen where it's him against one of the GOP candidates. Romney, Perry, Cain... All of them.

And while the majority of Americans say he doesn't deserve a second term, the majority also says they would prefer him to any GOP contender.

Umm last time I checked both the two latest polls ( Fox News and CNN ) have Obama losing to Romney by 2 and 4. By the way against the Generic Republican, Obama is either within the margin of error ( Rasmussen ) or tied ( Politico ). And mind you the candidate polls are still handicapped as one is in the primaries where the base is split in all different directions, and the other isn't.

[Dark Sage]

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/epo...bama-1171.html

As you can see, Obama comes out higher in six of these popular polls, Romney in four. Obama clearly has done better.

In fact, whoever this "generic GOP candidate" is, you'd better get him on the debate floor. He's doing a lot better than anyone else. Lol.

Edit: One of the polls where Romney is ahead is Fox News. Big surprise there. Lol.