2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Dark Sage]

Roy, you know, one thing that you Republicans could do to get us to take you seriously (because frankly, we think you're a laughingstock) is stop referring to the Affordable Health Care Act by that stupid name.

I think that the GOP's budget plan that they proposed last month was the dumbest idea they had in decades, but you didn't hear me calling it stupid names.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, you know, one thing that you Republicans could do to get us to take you seriously (because frankly, we think you're a laughingstock) is stop referring to the Affordable Health Care Act by that stupid name.

I think that the GOP's budget plan that they proposed last month was the dumbest idea they had in decades, but you didn't hear me calling it stupid names.

Curious if the Democrats believe that it is a stupid name, and that to use it you should not be taken seriously...

Why has President Obama embraced the name?

By your logic, Obama should not be taken seriously.

But you know what, if the Democrats start calling the Bush Tax Cuts the "Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 and the Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003" then in kind Republicans can start calling Obamacare the "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act"

[Dark Sage]

Good lord, using Claymation to poke fun at politics? I remember when I used to like that style of animation...

It's gotten stale fast...

[Roy Karrde]

Good lord, using Claymation to poke fun at politics? I remember when I used to like that style of animation...

It's gotten stale fast...

* Shrugs * Edited the video out as it did not have much to do with the current topic on hand. By the way it was 3D Animated, not Claymation.

Edit: And I am still waiting for your answer as to why Republicans cannot use Obamacare, but Obama can.

[Dark Sage]

Personally, I don't like the fact that he's using the name either.

And if you insist on using it, I'm going to call Romney's failed plan "Obomneycare", which as you know, is one of the biggest sore spots in his record.

[Heald]

Personally, I don't like the fact that he's using the name either.

And if you insist on using it, I'm going to call Romney's failed plan "Obomneycare", which as you know, is one of the biggest sore spots in his record.

1) Liberal and conservative commentators alike use the word Obamacare to describe the health-related legislation. It's a useful term that's a lot shorter than referring to the legislation by its full name.

2) Romney's health plan in his state was and is already referred to as Romneycare. Way to keep up with political trends champs

[Dark Sage]

It's also called Obomneycare, because Romney supported a program of mandated health insurance that was pretty identical to the one that Obama is supporting now. Which Romney is now opposing. That was the biggest problem Santorum had with him.

[Heald]

I think it boils down to whether the Federal government has the authority to force all citizens to buy health insurance, whereas Romney's program was at a state-level.

[Dark Sage]

That's what everyone who supports him says.

What it all comes down to is, he pushed for the same basic idea that he now opposes.

[Heald]

I'm in favour of refuse collection in my area. I'm opposed to the national government forcing a 'one-size-fits-all' policy for refuse collection, as it should be a local issue. That doesn't make me a hypocrite. It's possible to be in favour of a policy whilst being against that policy being controlled by a certain layer of government.

I don't support Romney, or the Republicans. I don't support Obama either, but I'd like to see the Republicans to really give him a run for his money, even though I think Obama is almost certainly going to win a second term.

EDIT I know I keep banging on about this but it is yet another reason why the optimism I had for Obama 4 years ago has been slowly chipped away at, and here's another chip at what is now a minuscule fraction of the original estimation I placed Barack in (Link)

Basically, Obama, at a summit of American Nations (which the US has banned Cuba from, yet another reason why Obama has proven to be a complete letdown in refusing to let go of this anachronistic embargo) Obama attempted to refer to the Falkland Islands as the Malvinas, but instead called them the Maldives. This pisses me off for two reasons:

1) Obama, by referring to the British territory as the fascist name Malvinas, instead of their correct, internationally recognised name of Falklands, is undermining the British sovereignty of the islands.

2) Obama does not seem to even care about the situation enough (in which 30 years ago many British soldiers and Argentinian conscripts died in a conflict over) to even be able to correctly name what the fascists call the Falklands, but seems to think he is informed enough to throw his and the United States' support behind Argentina's claim. Betraying a close ally such as the UK and destroying hundreds of years of goodwill without even knowing the facts behind the Falklands is at best ignorant, and at worst being completely cynical and spineless in setting back UK-US relations 100 years purely to win votes from Latinos.

[Roy Karrde]

It's also called Obomneycare, because Romney supported a program of mandated health insurance that was pretty identical to the one that Obama is supporting now. Which Romney is now opposing. That was the biggest problem Santorum had with him.

Actually the term is Romneycare and has been used by Democrats and Republicans alike.

That's what everyone who supports him says.

What it all comes down to is, he pushed for the same basic idea that he now opposes.

He pushed it at a STATE level, not a FEDERAL level, states are given more freedom in that regard. If Democrats cannot understand the difference then I would suggest they avoid the topic entirely.

@ Heald: I saw that today, and it isn't just sad but it's pathetic. Britain has every right to claim those islands. Not to mention they are one of if not our strongest ally, and have given blood and treasure in support of our country in Iraq and Afghanistan. It is beyond pathetic how Obama treats them in return.

[Heald]

There was also that time when he gave our Prime Minister a set of region-locked DVDs as a present on a state visit. Yes, it was really, really funny, and probably helped Obama's popularity in the UK since the then Prime Minister Gordon Brown was, by then, the most hated man in the country, but it did speak volumes in what little esteem Obama held the British in.

[Dark Sage]

Everyone who supports Romney says that a state-imposed mandate is different than a federal-imposed mandate.

But is it really different to the person who is actually told that he must buy health insurance?

"Dear sir, effective immediately, you are responsible for providing health insurance for yourself and your family, and will face fines for not complying, but because this is the governor's idea and the President's, you should not complain. Please vote Republican in 2012."

[Roy Karrde]

Everyone who supports Romney says that a state-imposed mandate is different than a federal-imposed mandate.

But is it really different to the person who is actually told that he must buy health insurance?

"Dear sir, effective immediately, you are responsible for providing health insurance for yourself and your family, and will face fines for not complying, but because this is the governor's idea and the President's, you should not complain. Please vote Republican in 2012."

It is different in terms of Constitutional law, which in the end is what matters most.

Edit: I noticed you are avoiding the topic of Obama backstabbing Britain.

[Dark Sage]

When the tabloids in Britain apologize for the nasty things they said about Amanda Knox, I might decide to side with them.

I'm firmly convinced that nowadays, people in Europe hate Americans.

[Roy Karrde]

When the tabloids in Britain apologize for the nasty things they said about Amanda Knox, I might decide to side with them.

I'm firmly convinced that nowadays, people in Europe hate Americans.

So we are going to back stab our ally based on what tabloids say, and what the European populous may or may not believe? How petty.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, that case hit me hard. I used to be proud of my Italian heritage, but the way they treated that poor woman has made me ashamed of it. And the British tabloids (who released an outright false story when she was acquitted) made it worse.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, that case hit me hard. I used to be proud of my Italian heritage, but the way they treated that poor woman has made me ashamed of it. And the British tabloids (who released an outright false story when she was acquitted) made it worse.

And again we should not hold the Government for how the tabloids act. It is like the rest of the world should hold us for how Fox News or MSNBC acts.

[Heald]

When the tabloids in Britain apologize for the nasty things they said about Amanda Knox, I might decide to side with them.

I'm firmly convinced that nowadays, people in Europe hate Americans.

Trust me, the British people hate their own press more than any other country does.

[Dark Sage]

Trust me, the British people hate their own press more than any other country does.

Okay, maybe I can believe that.

But out of curiosity, Heald, just why are the Falklands so important? I never hear about this dispute on the news over here, not even on CBS Evening News, so it's I can only assume that they consider it trivial.

[Heald]

It's a matter of principal. The fact is the Falklands are sovereign British territory, they have been controlled by the British before Argentina was even a country and the people there have expressed their desire to remain part of the UK. Argentina's attitude towards it are belligerent and completely against how modern day diplomacy and democracy should be conducted. Argentina staking its claim over it is nothing new. Obama throwing his support behind Argentina's actions, on the other hand, is gross betrayal. The only reason he is doing it is to win Latino votes, but in doing so he is saying 'I prefer winning votes than honouring century-old alliances'. Is this the kind of man you want as a President, one who is willing to destroy decades of international goodwill for cheap political gain?

[Dark Sage]

A "sovereign British territory"? You talk as if the British Monarchy actually ruled the country and the British Empire still existed.

It's bad enough that our Congress bothers Mr. Obama with trivial matters like the use of the expression "In God We Trust" on our currency and other stuff like that. If this is a matter of British pride, I don't see why it's our problem.

[Heald]

You really have no idea what you're talking about. Sovereign isn't limited to states with monarchies, for example, the USA is sovereign state. Furthermore, the Falklands isn't a colony, it's British territory, as much as the islands that lie off the English Channel are British territory. The only difference is the geographical distance between the two which, in the grand scheme of things, is of trivial significance.

It is only one example of why Barack's conduct in terms of foreign policy has been completely horrible. I don't expect it to make any difference to any American's lives and it will certainly bear no meaning in the election, but on a more general note, many Americans, especially those who had family in Afghanistan and Iraq, were very grateful that the UK was also involved in those conflicts. The thanks that the current President has shown for a decade of assistance has been a complete insult, and maybe the next time the US decides to get itself bogged down in a conflict, it might find itself very short of friends thanks to Barack's less than stellar treatment of America's allies. That is why it is your problem.

[Dark Sage]

You're upset about Afghanistan?? Talk to Bush.

Obama was opposed to that mess since day one, and devoted all of his time to bringing it to an end.

[Heald]

You seem to get easily confused. I wasn't voicing my opposition to Afghanistan and Iraq (although on a side-note I was and still am opposed to the UK becoming involved in those conflicts) but the fact that Obama doesn't really care that UK soldiers died in order to help their allies in the US military. Those are people's sons, daughters, fathers, brothers, mothers and sisters, honest British people who made the ultimate sacrifice in wars we would not have been involved in were it not for the USA, and our government's decision to support our allies in those conflicts should be honoured by the administrations that inherit those same armed forces. When Obama turns his back on the UK, he spits on their graves. He doesn't care that our soldiers died for American conflicts.

[Dark Sage]

You think because he won't get involved with a silly land dispute, he's saying "drop dead" to Her Majesty's Army and all of its casualties?

If you want to believe that any politician in this country, and I speak for both parties, is that callous, then I feel sorry for you.

[Heald]

You think because he won't get involved with a silly land dispute, he's saying "drop dead" to Her Majesty's Army and all of its casualties?

If you want to believe that any politician in this country, and I speak for both parties, is that callous, then I feel sorry for you.

1) You're clearly not reading my posts. I didn't say that at all. And it's hardly a silly land dispute, or maybe you would like a bunch of fascists to hold you and your family at gunpoint, then you can comment, because at the moment it is a very real fear for the people of the Falklands that they will wake up one day to see an Argentinian soldier training a sight of a gun on them.

2) He hasn't 'not gotten involved', he has involved himself very much so, in supporting Argentina's completely void claim over the rightful claim of the United Kingdom. By refusing to support the United Kingdom when the UK has supported the USA with the lives of its own military, he dishonours the UK dead, both those who died defending the Falklands and those who died defending the USA's foreign interests. Remeber, the UK has gained absolutely nothing by involving itself in these wars, they have always been US led for US gain.

3) In response to your deleted point regarding the poll naming the UK's greatest foe, it was a poll conducted by the National Army Museum regarding who they thought was the UK's most outstanding military opponent, not who was the most evil person the UK has ever had to deal with. The USA should consider it an honour. Instead, like every post in this thread, you completely misread it and decide to reply to what you think you read.

So, please, read my post, because every post I've seen you post today hasn't been in response to anything that has actually been posted, only what you think has been posted.

[Dark Sage]

Why do you think I deleted the post? I apologize for that.

I do not know if Argentina's claim is any more "void" than Britain's, Heald. I don't know the facts, because as I have said, this is not an issue to the American public. Obama has to abide by whatever claim is truly legit, no matter who our closet ally is. You forget that he is not British, like you are, and thus has no bias.

And by the way, I noticed your remark criticizing him for keeping the embargo against Cuba in place. Sure, forget the fact that Castro is a dictator who rules with an iron fist and who refused to free hundreds of political prisoners, who has kept Cuba in a depression for decades. Just lift the embargo so we can do business with a tyrant.

Edit: Okay, now I know the facts. And I think that the whole issue boils down to the fact that both Britain and Argentina are too stubborn to relinquish their stance on an argument that is decades old.

[Heald]

And by the way, I noticed your remark criticizing him for keeping the embargo against Cuba in place. Sure, forget the fact that Castro is a dictator who rules with an iron fist and who refused to free hundreds of political prisoners, who has kept Cuba in a depression for decades. Just lift the embargo so we can do business with a tyrant.

That argument doesn't really float due to the fact the US still happily does business with China, Saudi Arabia and others. You are fooling yourself if you really believe that it is down to human rights. Cuba is in an economic hell hole because of the embargo, and the only reason why the US continues its anachronistic embargo is because Cuba's government remains a stark reminder of the failure of the USA to stop a country on its door-step falling to Communism. It has no place in a post Cold War world.

I also don't believe you know any facts about the Falklands argument, considering you spent all of 11 minutes researching it. Obama is biased on it, he backs Argentina because he wants to win the Latino vote. I have no vested interest in whether the Falklands should remain British or not. However, it is right that the people who live on the islands decide whether they stay British or not. That is their right as enshrined by the UN and by international law. Both Obama and Argentina are in contravention of these laws by trying to force the UK to relinquish sovereignty.

[Dark Sage]

Heald, please.

We side with Britain almost all the time. Now we side with someone else once, and you say it's an insult to fallen British soldiers?

[kurai]

i'm not really convinced that he is so insidiously biased in this case - as you say, he did not even get the wrong name right.

it seems more likely that someone briefed him before the summit as to the 'spanish' placenames in order to appeal to the predominantly hispanophone audience at the summit (with a good performance there then able to be pointed to in order to gain latino support domestically).

however!

it is probably notable that he did not say "fuck you united kingdom, they're the malvinas"

he said "in respect to the maldives [sic] or.. the falklands, our position on this is, uh, that we are going to remain neutral"

perhaps it seems like disrespect to use both names when you are on one particular side of the issue, but he probably intended it as neutral and inclusive phrasing, given that argentinians were directly in front of him (ie. he deliberately was not taking sides).

given that his stance is that the US is not taking sides in such conflict, saying both names shouldn't be more of an insult than not taking your side in the first place.

[Dark Sage]

Heald, I just realized a few things...

First of all, reading your earlier post, it seems that Mr. Obama is not acting as a mediator in this issue at all. You just assume he is because he referred to the territory in question by its old name.

Second, if the US were to act as a mediator in this issue, it would be referred to the Secretary of State, not the President.

Third, you're acting like this issue is causing the relations between the US and Great Britan to fall apart, and I truly doubt that this is the case. Like I said, the average American doesn't even KNOW about this issue.

And I doubt it will be a concern in November.

[Dark Sage]

I emailed my dad, the political science teacher, to get his opinion on this. His response:

Since the days of Winston Churchill, there has never been a closer alliance or friendship in the world than the one between the United States and Britain, and anyone who thinks that it would be jeapordized by the issue in the Falkland Islands is being silly.

[ChobiChibi]

Jeapordise is too strong a word, not to mention one Heald hadn't used. It's more a matter of principle than that of major foreign policy. Yes, it may irritate those living there, and maybe some Brits over here too, but it's not gonna make or break UK/US relations.

[Blademaster]

It's a matter of principal.

*principle

When the tabloids in Britain apologize for the nasty things they said about Amanda Knox, I might decide to side with them.

I truly hope you remember that when World War III comes and the Brits decide they don't feel like helping your spiteful ass like they did the last two times.

[Dark Sage]

Uh, Blade? You have your history wrong... WE helped THEM.

The only fighting that happened on U.S. soil during World War II was the attack on Pearl Harbor, and the Germans focused almost all of their efforts on the rest of Europe.

[ChobiChibi]

I think he's refering to Iraq and Afganistan there, champ.

[Dark Sage]

When someone says "World War III" (which is unlikely to ever happen) and mentions "the first two times", that usually means the first two World Wars.

[Dark Sage]

Getting back on topic, some new polls have been released. They are puzzling to say the least, at least when you compare them.

The Gallup Poll shows a near tie between Obama and Romney, showing Obama leading 47 percent to 45.

But the CNN/ORC International poll of 910 registered voters conducted April 13 to 15 tells a different story. It finds Obama leading by nine points (52 to 43 percent), a margin nearly identical to the eight-point Obama lead (51 to 43 percent) found in last week's ABC News/Washington Post poll.

A Ipsos/Reuters telephone poll, also released on Monday and conducted April 12 to 15, gives Obama a four-point advantage (47 to 43 percent).

Overall, Romney is doing slightly better since Santorum dropped out.

[ChobiChibi]

I think you'll find he said "the last two times", not "the first two". I'm sorry, but Blade's not stupid, and therefore wouldn't say that we aided you in the first two world wars when that's clearly a very stupid and misinformed statement to make.