2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

They had a choice between letting the bill come to vote or protecting the economy.

They chose the latter.

Don't feed me your BS, Roy.

Fixed to represent reality

[Dark Sage]

Don't change my quotes Roy, I never do that to yours.

Here's the issue. The GOP bill is almost the same as the Democrat bill, they just disagree on how to pay for it. The GOP claim, as they always do, that they can't tax the rich because hurting "job creators" (a phrase that they just love to use) is bad.

I say, the rich do not deserve to be called "job creators" unless they are actually creating jobs. And they aren't.

So they should be taxed.

[Roy Karrde]

Don't change my quotes Roy, I never do that to yours.

Awww

Here's the issue. The GOP bill is almost the same as the Democrat bill, they just disagree on how to pay for it. The GOP claim, as they always do, that they can't tax the rich because hurting "job creators" (a phrase that they just love to use) is bad.

I say, the rich do not deserve to be called "job creators" unless they are actually creating jobs. And they aren't.

So they should be taxed.

Actually the GOP claim that it can be taken from a slushfund program that even the Democrats were wanting to dismantle.

But lets look at some of the quotes that put your belief at odds with your own party.

“First of all, he’s right. Normally, you don’t raise taxes in a recession, which is why we haven’t and why we’ve instead cut taxes. So I guess what I’d say to Scott is – his economics are right. You don’t raise taxes in a recession. We haven’t raised taxes in a recession.” - Barack Obama

“Millions of entrepreneurs who have been waiting to invest in their businesses will receive new tax incentives to help them expand, buy new equipment or make upgrades – freeing up other money to hire new workers.” - Barack Obama on the Bush Tax Cuts and more tax relief

“I personally don’t believe we ought to be raising taxes or cutting spending until we get this economy off the ground," - Bill Clinton

[Dark Sage]

He doesn't want people to pay more taxes, Roy, he just wants them to pay a fair percentage.

You've heard how Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his secretary? It's not a myth, you know?

You earn more, you should pay a higher rate. The whole thing seems simple if you ask me.

And besides, the GOP are not only trying to hinder every attempt to do that, but they're trying to give the wealthiest Americans tax breaks. Some pessimistic people think that this country will eventually become an outright plutocracy, and if the GOP truly had their way, that just might eventually happen.

[Roy Karrde]

He doesn't want people to pay more taxes, Roy, he just wants them to pay a fair percentage.

You've heard how Warren Buffet pays a lower tax rate than his secretary? It's not a myth, you know?

You earn more, you should pay a higher rate. The whole thing seems simple if you ask me.

So he wants to raise the tax rate for some which... would be paying more taxes. By the way want to know how much money the Buffet rule would pull in?

$4 billion, a total of 400 more households. In other wards the Buffet rule would not pay for shit because very few are paying at that level.

So lets do a little math, the Buffet rule pulls in AT BEST $4 billion dollars, the Student Loan bill costs $6 Billion dollars.

So $4 Billion - $6 Billion... hmm I think the Democrats still need some money somewhere...

[Dark Sage]

If it's so insignificant, then why is the GOP working so hard to oppose it??

[Roy Karrde]

If it's so insignificant, then why is the GOP working so hard to oppose it??

A: Because this won't be the only tax increase, there will be small ones here and there, and eventually it adds up to a fairly sizable tax increase.

B: It would send a message to the market that Capital Gains are now fair game. Want to scare the market quickly? Send that message.

Now I ask: Why is it that Democrats are now so key on raising taxes? What has changed from 2009/2010 to now where tax increases is such a big thing for them?

I think we both know the answer to that: The Radical Occupy Wall Street Crowd.

[Dark Sage]

you know Roy, I don't like the OWS crowd, but do you know what they remind me of, in a way?

The protesters that held the Boston Tea Party in the days before the American Revolution, the very event that a certain GOP-led movement has named itself after.

Those colonists were protesting against an unfair law by striking against a corporation with a monopoly, and the OWS protesters are marching against large corporations that are very much like the East India Company.

So why in the world is a splinter group of the GOP naming themselves after that event? I would think that it's contradictory.

Edit: By the way, I in no way take back my earlier claim that the Boston Tea Party was an act of vandalism that shouldn't be admired. I'm just looking at it from a historic viewpoint.

[Roy Karrde]

you know Roy, I don't like the OWS crowd, but do you know what they remind me of, in a way?

The protesters that held the Boston Tea Party in the days before the American Revolution, the very event that a certain GOP-led movement has named itself after.

Those colonists were protesting against an unfair law by striking against a corporation with a monopoly, and the OWS protesters are marching against large corporations that are very much like the East India Company.

Funny but I don't remember those in the Tea Party calling for MORE taxes and MORE regulation against them. And honestly the way the OWS movement acts toward U.S. activities, guns, and religion, there is a pretty good chance that the Tea Partiers back then would SHOOT the members of the OWS movement.

So why in the world is a splinter group of the GOP naming themselves after that event? I would think that it's contradictory.

How so they were protesting against increasing taxes and increasing regulation over them. Same as the Tea Party today is doing.

Edit: By the way, I in no way take back my earlier claim that the Boston Tea Party was an act of vandalism that shouldn't be admired. I'm just looking at it from a historic viewpoint.

So from a historical context you are saying that it was a negative act of protest? That a major founding event of our country shouldn't have happened?

[Dark Sage]

Gas prices are now down for the fifth straight week in a row.

Tom Kloza, the chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service, called earlier predictions of $5 a gallon gas prices "apocalyptic," and told the folks at AAA that he'd wear a clown costume to their annual meeting if he was wrong. It looks like he won't have to get a costume.

He was right, the GOP was wrong.

And after speaking to an economic expert, I realized that many people don't realize that gas is actually quite cheap compared to many other products we use.

Let me put it in perspective. If shampoo (for example) were sold the same way pertroleum was, by the barrel, the bottle-sized amounts of it we'd buy would cost a LOT. We'd be paying $15 for one bottle of Pert Plus. Milk would cost about $16 a quart. Orange juice, even more.

And if gasoline were, in turn, priced the same way those products are now, the cost for it would be astronomical.

But the point is, gas prices are going down. One less thing you can blame on Obama.

[Roy Karrde]

Gas prices are now down for the fifth straight week in a row.

Tom Kloza, the chief oil analyst at the Oil Price Information Service, called earlier predictions of $5 a gallon gas prices "apocalyptic," and told the folks at AAA that he'd wear a clown costume to their annual meeting if he was wrong. It looks like he won't have to get a costume.

He was right, the GOP was wrong.

And after speaking to an economic expert, I realized that many people don't realize that gas is actually quite cheap compared to many other products we use.

Let me put it in perspective. If shampoo (for example) were sold the same way pertroleum was, by the barrel, the bottle-sized amounts of it we'd buy would cost a LOT. We'd be paying $15 for one bottle of Pert Plus. Milk would cost about $16 a quart. Orange juice, even more.

And if gasoline were, in turn, priced the same way those products are now, the cost for it would be astronomical.

But the point is, gas prices are going down. One less thing you can blame on Obama.

I completely and utterly admit, the GOP was wrong and I was wrong. Gas Prices are down. Now they are down because the economy is going into the crapper and it looks like Europe is about to implode, so hey I am freely able to admit that I was wrong, I honestly did not think the economy would be sliding back into recession, or France and Greece would make a collective suicide pact.

But then again I would not really be touting that right now seeing the reason as to WHY they are down right now.

[Dark Sage]

In other news, Michelle Bachmann just made a very dubious move. She has become a dual-citizen of the United States and Switzerland.

Switzerland is a country with mandated heath care for all its citizens, the very program pushed by Mr. Obama that she swore to repeal.

Hopefully, she'll move there and never come back. I'm sick of this hypocrite.

[Roy Karrde]

I am curious Dark Sage, and well anyone else, what did you think of last night's results?

In Wisconsin the Republicans pretty much showed that Walker is going to win reelection, not to mention the Union's candidate flailed out.

And in West Virginia, Obama nearly lost to a prison inmate in the Democratic Primary.

[Dark Sage]

Tells you a lot about West Virginia, doesn't it?

A state that ranks among the highest in illiteracy and dropouts in the country, a place where pretty much everyone typifies the stereotypical NRA member.

The GOP can have West Virginia. The Democrats are better off without it.

And you seem to have no reply to Michelle Bachmann's controversial move.

[Roy Karrde]

Tells you a lot about West Virginia, doesn't it?

A state that ranks among the highest in illiteracy and dropouts in the country, a place where pretty much everyone typifies the stereotypical NRA member.

The GOP can have West Virginia. The Democrats are better off without it.

Dude it was a Democratic Primary, and did you ever think that it could have anything to do with Obama's opposition to Coal? You know, West Virginia's Cash Crop.

And you seem to have no reply to Michelle Bachmann's controversial move.

Because I don't care?

And you seem to have no reply to the reason why Gas Prices are going down.

[Dark Sage]

Coal is a dirty, smelly, hazardous, pollution-causing fuel that Obama wants to replace with clean and more efficient natural gas.

Your move.

Edit:

And you seem to have no reply to the reason why Gas Prices are going down.

Because you're wrong. The economy is NOT heading back into a recession.

[Roy Karrde]

Coal is a dirty, smelly, hazardous, pollution-causing fuel that Obama wants to replace with clean and more efficient natural gas.

Your move.

It is also the cash crop of several states and accounts for 46% of all electricity that is produced in the United States and 555,270 jobs of direct and indirect employment, for a combined payroll of $36.3 billion.

Because you're wrong. The economy is NOT heading back into a recession.

Dude we have the lowest work force participation in decades, and last month the job numbers could not even keep up with natural growth. Not to mention the other problems with stock and innovatory that are mounting. And of course lets not forget what happens if Europe implodes. But who cares about that because "Dark Sage" says differently.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah, Roy, everyone says they want to go green, but a politician that actually tries to do it gets lambasted for it...

A factory that burns coal pollutes the environment and makes people sick, but when someone suggests replacing it with a cleaner alternative, they're all over him...

Even Saudi Arabia is smarter than coal producers in this regard. They know that oil won't last forever, so their government has several programs in the works that are developing alternative energy sources to fall back on once petroleum is no longer profitable.

[Roy Karrde]

Yeah, Roy, everyone says they want to go green, but a politician that actually tries to do it gets lambasted for it...

A factory that burns coal pollutes the environment and makes people sick, but when someone suggests replacing it with a cleaner alternative, they're all over him...

Even Saudi Arabia is smarter than coal producers in this regard. They know that oil won't last forever, so their government has several programs in the works that are developing alternative energy sources to fall back on once petroleum is no longer profitable.

And you honestly expect the states that thrive on coal to actually be willing to engage in economic suicide? To allow tens if not hundreds of thousands of their citizens to go unemployed? I mean do you honestly and truly expect them to do that? It would be like telling California that we are moving away from computers, or telling Detroit that we are moving away from Cars. Of course they will want to keep their jobs, who wouldn't?

[Dark Sage]

Give it up, Roy.

That convict in Texas has no delgate willing to sign up to represent him at the convention, even though he gained 15% of the primary votes, and even if he managed to run for office, he wouldn't be allowed to vote for himself, because he's in prison. He is a pretend candidate.

If 40% of the primary voters in this West Virgina voted for a pretend candidate, West Virginia is a state full of morons.

[Roy Karrde]

Give it up, Roy.

That convict in Texas has no delgate willing to sign up to represent him at the convention, even though he gained 15% of the primary votes, and even if he managed to run for office, he wouldn't be allowed to vote for himself, because he's in prison. He is a pretend candidate.

If 40% of the primary voters in this West Virgina voted for a pretend candidate, West Virginia is a state full of morons.

Or they are willing to send a message that they are unhappy with Obama's anti-coal policies. And seeing how massive the news has been about this in the past 12 hours, I would say the message has been received.

[Dark Sage]

In more relevant news, Mr. Obama has finally said in an interview with ABC's Robin Roberts that he supports same-sex marriage:

"I have to tell you that over the course of several years as I have talked to friends and family and neighbors when I think about members of my own staff who are in incredibly committed monogamous relationships, same-sex relationships, who are raising kids together, when I think about those soldiers or airmen or marines or sailors who are out there fighting on my behalf and yet feel constrained, even now that Don't Ask Don't Tell is gone, because they are not able to commit themselves in a marriage, at a certain point I’ve just concluded that for me personally it is important for me to go ahead and affirm that I think same sex couples should be able to get married."

There you have it. He finally said it.

[Heald]

Let the queers marry. More room in heaven for me. But then again I believe in Raptor Jesus so I'm probably doomed too.

[Dark Sage]

Heald, let me spell something out for you.

Whenever people confront fundamentalists with the bad things the Bible says, like how it's okay to sell your children into slavery, or how someone who works on the Sabbath should be stoned, or the infamous "spare the rod spoil the child" thing, they reply by saying, "Oh, that's in the Old Testament! Doesn't apply at all!"

Well, I have news for you. The only place in the Bible where homosexuality is referred to as sinful (if is interpreted correctly) is in the Old Testament.

Jesus never condemns it, or even mentions it, nor does anyone in the New Testiment. And I challenge you to prove me wrong.

So, if we are to indeed adhere faithfully to what is written in the Old Testament... Did you work this Sunday? Not only at your job, did you even do yardwork or housework? If so, you deserve to die. The Bible says so.


Edit: By the way... The priest at my church told me that... He's a very wise man.

[Heald]

I wasn't being serious. I've honestly got no problem with gays marrying and I think it's in the interests of both society and Christianity that they do allow it.

Obama does face the risk of losing a lot of support of African-Americans with traditional values on this one, but at least it's a step forward for America which, in this area, seems to act more like a Middle Eastern theocracy than a Western Democracy in this respect.

[Roy Karrde]

I wasn't being serious. I've honestly got no problem with gays marrying and I think it's in the interests of both society and Christianity that they do allow it.

Obama does face the risk of losing a lot of support of African-Americans with traditional values on this one, but at least it's a step forward for America which, in this area, seems to act more like a Middle Eastern theocracy than a Western Democracy in this respect.

I would also add in Hispanics to that, both Hispanics and African-Americans are very deep in the church and I cannot see how this helps him. But one thing is for sure, North Carolina just went from swing to being a GOP gain.

[Dark Sage]

Sorry, Hearld, I take bigotry very seriously. I am a stauch support for all forms of civil rights. Next time, say "just kidding".

Actually, in a new poll released today, Obama seems to have the African-American vote cemented. Only 5% of polled African-Americans support Romney.

Edit: And Roy, him taking this stand was MUCH better than taking no stand at all, even you must admit.

[Roy Karrde]

Sorry, Hearld, I take bigotry very seriously. I am a stauch support for all forms of civil rights. Next time, say "just kidding".

Actually, in a new poll released today, Obama seems to have the African-American vote cemented. Only 5% of polled African-Americans support Romney.

That was before this announcement, and there is a difference between supporting and actively helping him campaign, hell this may keep some from even voting for him.

As I have always said, they don't have to support the other guy, they just need to stay at home on election day.

Edit: And Roy, him taking this stand was MUCH better than taking no stand at all, even you must admit.

Politically? No.

Only the most idiotic of persons believe that he hasn't supported Gay Marriage this entire time and was only "evolving" for political gain. Not coming out for it is not going to keep the gay community from sending him money, or voting for him. However it may disenfranchise him with other ethnicities. Obama was playing the "Vote Present" game for a while, and he could have held on till after the election if he really tried. Instead he is hedging his bets that this will not hurt him with evangelical minorities.

[Heald]

Sorry, Hearld, I take bigotry very seriously. I am a stauch support for all forms of civil rights. Next time, say "just kidding"

I thought the fact that I mentioned my belief in Raptor Jesus was probably clue enough, so next time I'm dealing with an autistic person I'll make sure to add extra pointers so they can keep up.

[Dark Sage]

I have no idea who Raptor Jesus is.

And if it was obvious that he supported it, how will making it official lose him votes?

At the same time, Romney's anti-gay stance could well do the same. North Carolina may have passed that bill, but there are many states where the majority favor legalizing it.

And those that don't are ones that a Democrat likely wouldn't win anyway. Places where the Klan used to be popular.

[Roy Karrde]

And if it was obvious that he supported it, how will making it official lose him votes?

As many people are willing to turn a blind eye to his "evolving" stance, and support him. Now supporting him means supporting a person that goes against the church.

At the same time, Romney's anti-gay stance could well do the same. North Carolina may have passed that bill, but there are many states where the majority favor legalizing it.

If Gay Marriage was such a sure fire winner, then Obama would have supported it in 2008.

And those that don't are ones that a Democrat likely wouldn't win anyway. Places where the Klan used to be popular.

So now only the Klan is against gay marriage?

[Heald]

I have no idea who Raptor Jesus is.

He killed for your sins LOL

[Dark Sage]

You know, Roy, ever since he made the statement, prominent members of the GOP have been awfully quiet about it.

Know why? Because it's awfully hard to denounce his new stance without sounding like a bigot.

[Roy Karrde]

You know, Roy, ever since he made the statement, prominent members of the GOP have been awfully quiet about it.

Know why? Because it's awfully hard to denounce his new stance without sounding like a bigot.

Dude it has been like 3 hours at most since he made it.

Besides, why would they want to? It would take them off message again from Obama's Failures on the Economy, and get them into a war that could alienate independents. Personally if I were them I would avoid the distraction and keep hammering Obama where he is vulnerable.

[Heald]

I'm sure queers marrying will get the economy on track. Imagine all the fancy shit they'll have to buy for their fruity weddings.

[Roy Karrde]

I'm sure queers marrying will get the economy on track. Imagine all the fancy shit they'll have to buy for their fruity weddings.

Why am I suddenly getting the image of those big giant onion blossom hats that are worn at Black Churches, except instead of flowers, it has fruit in them?

[Dark Sage]

On the other hand, here's some of the support he's gotten since making it:

Michael Bloomberg:

"This is a major turning point in the history of American civil rights. No American president has ever supported a major expansion of civil rights that has not ultimately been adopted by the American people - and I have no doubt that this will be no exception. The march of freedom that has sustained our country since the Revolution of 1776 continues, and no matter what setbacks may occur in a given state, freedom will triumph over fear and equality will prevail over exclusion. Today's announcement is a testament to the President's convictions, and it builds on the courageous stands that so many Americans have taken over the years on behalf of equal rights for gay and lesbian Americans, stretching back to the Stonewall Inn in Greenwich Village."

Frank Lautenberg:

"President Obama's support for marriage equality marks an important moment for civil rights in America. We simply can not treat same sex couples as second-class citizens in our country. Marriage equality is one of the most significant civil rights battles of our time and is critical to guaranteeing the equal protection under the law promised to every American in the Constitution. The President's support for marriage equality should inspire Congress, Governors and state legislatures to advance civil rights for all Americans."

Howard Dean:

"President Obama's public support for marriage equality is an historic affirmation of the fundamental American value of equal rights for all. Having signed the nation's first law allowing Civil Unions as Governor of Vermont, I'm also proud to see our president affirm the belief that I and so many other Americans hold: loving and committed couples should have the same benefits that are extended through marriage. Marriage equality is a right and a benefit to all families."

The only prominent GOP member to say anything length about it has been Mike Huckabee:

"Barack Obama just announced he supports same-sex marriage. Nancy Pelosi immediately jumped on the announcement and emailed Democrat activists nationwide promising to continue their fight. This is going to be a defining issue this election. Obama, Pelosi and the Democrats have been a complete failure on economic issues so now they are going to focus on issues that will rile up their base. Well, Mr. President it's going to rile up our folks also. Men and women who support traditional marriage."

Not much more than anything I've heard from the GOP camp before.

[Roy Karrde]

If you are waiting for this to be some big turning point or the GOP to make this a big electoral thing, I would suggest you take this quote from Hot Air, Dark Sage.

Most Americans are a lot more worried about their economic prospects than whether their gay friends and relatives will ever be able to marry. Even among conservatives online the most common reaction seems to be indifference. Really the most noteworthy thing about it is how politically calculating and dishonest it exposes Obama to be.

http://hotair.com/archives/2012/05/0...s-youd-expect/

[Dark Sage]

Ah, yes, another quote from your right-wing conservative website.

[Roy Karrde]

Ah, yes, another quote from your right-wing conservative website.

Which says that Right Wing Conservatives really are not caring right now...