[GYM] Cynder vs Mew Master (Ref: Oslo)

[DarkestLight]

You ignored a Substitution of mine, when it was to clearly be triggered by Cnyder's set of commands. The Attacks themselves are not issued in the middle of the match, they're both revealed during subsequent posts between each Round. And after the second Trainer posts their attacks, then are the Actions tabulated for the round to proceed (because there's really no other way to do this). This is how I view this as a Ref, and how Action Substitutions are supposed to work.

Gonna hit ya with the Head Ref hammer here. Substitutions are supposed to be used to counter a specific notion. It can be described loosely (If they use a physical attack, use Counter<--I said this purposely..) or they can be precise (If they use Taunt, use Protect). It's all in how the battlers use them that mark their effectiveness, and there is a give and go for advantage since each player posts first every other round.

Because if they don't work like this.. then having Subs (necessary in this format) are null and void (nightmare for some players out there who sub every freakin thing in the book).

It isn't supposed to be: "oh, attack goes here, but oh, it's so fast he can't use his sub even though he subbed to counter this attack."<---

Actually, that's how its supposed to be-and that brings us back to Priority. You may not REF like that, but you Battle like that-like when you use Bide as a sub if they hit you with a Physical move. Bide has no priority-but if I used Quick attack-your Pokemon uses Bide instead of..oh I dunno, Cosmic Power.

All Priority moves exist in ASB. Its why you can Protect most anything at least once-even if its an Extremespeed combo. Its why speedy moves like Vacumn Wave and Extremespeed are attached to combos-so they get there first.

That's deliberately ignoring a clear substitution against an attack that I know is coming, Susanoo knows is coming, YOU know it's coming and Cnyder knows for SURE it's coming. It really isn't an issue of WHEN once Cnyder's actions are revealed, because then the when is Known to both parties, and thus Substitutions can trump previously selected moves as long as the trigger action is there.

You see, I view these Action posts are like Magic the Gathering's Spell Stack.

I play Extreme Speed, Cnyder in response plays Earthquake, I counterspell my own Extreme Speed with Counter in response to Cnyder playing Earthquake (as I posted originally), then the stack is resolved.

No. Becasue you are giving yourself an out to both sides of the coin (which is as bad as subbing every friggin round.) I previously showed you using a priority move as how they have always been used in order to take advantage. Now. In this battle, you are trying to use Extremespeed unless Earthquake comes. Problem here is that Extremespeed is a Priority move, so when you fight out the gate, Extremespeed is going to happen first BEFORE Earthquake. By doing so, you lock yourself out of the sub because you used the priority move to get the speed advantage in this round on your side.

Basically, you cant say "Move fast, unless you see them use this, then move super slow." That's an impossibility.

And before you say "Well then how the hell does Protect work, it beats out any other move?" I'll explain that. Protect is a standing move. Its not moving. Therefore, the being can Protect instantly, or wait til the last minute. So if someone goes "Use X, but if they use fire moves, Protect." Protect CAN work since there is time to raise up the hands and erect the barrier.

Now, if X is a priority move, no that won't work because you are willingly pre-empting their attack. You are going to beat out their next move, no matter if its a fire move-so your sub is blocked out by you in exchange for you getting the speed hit in. Give and take.

My Substitutions trump my selected actions so long as the trigger is there. Which it was.

After the fact that you would have hit her first, before she got the attack off, which makes the sub invalid.

It doesn't matter when the round begins because both sets of actions from both battlers are known, and Substitutions (if any) are exchanged with the Action Slots before the Round even begins.

So this already destroys your argument. When you post your actions, you consciously know that your attack is going to go first. You know its going to beat out even the most obvious attack. But you still do it anyway for the speed advantage-and then you try to take the surprise advantage. No bueno.

And I can show how there's also a double standard here:

Cnyder posted actions in response to actions I had posted. However, their Tropius has a SPD Stage increase above Susanoo, which means Oashi's actions to counter mine wouldn't happen as written because she'd go BEFORE my moves take place (thanks to the SPD +1). After all, how can she counter the move when (as by your own argument) she wouldn't know the attack is coming?

Except a +1 Spd Oashi is still uber slower than a Lucario :/. Even if it WAS faster, Extremespeed takes priority over all other moves, no matter the speed of the user.

No, as explained previously. The moment you reveal your commands are the same moment my Substitutions should kick in before the Round starts (Original thought upon reading that comment: Since when?! Subs don't work like that?!)

No. Subs are written in the beginning of the round because it makes it easy for the ref to remember the parameters. Whether they happen or not gets decided during battle (I hope...)

DL: While it may be common knowledge, maybe Cnyder didn't know about that combo, or my other combos. But if they didn't, now they do, and almost equates to cheating if this were an official tournament (Poker, Magic, Blackjack, Underwater Basket Weaving). >:/

Mock me anywhere else cept my battle (unless you're reffing, then I expect it).[/quote]

o.O This was discussed in the chat thread already :/ So I'm gonna disregard that since Oslo brung it up first.