2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[mr_pikachu]

Well, I'm speaking more toward Ryan's inability to make the point about the Obama-Biden ticket lacking strength, because in my view, Biden showed substantially more strength than Ryan tonight. I do think Biden started to look bad with some of the scoffing while Ryan was still speaking (a separate issue from the interruptions themselves). But while those were a minor black mark against Biden, Ryan's lack of force tonight rendered his "strength" argument impotent.

This is just my take on things, not really a statement of fact. I'm just calling it how I saw it, from my perspective.

[Roy Karrde]

Well, I'm speaking more toward Ryan's inability to make the point about the Obama-Biden ticket lacking strength, because in my view, Biden showed substantially more strength than Ryan tonight. I do think Biden started to look bad with some of the scoffing while Ryan was still speaking (a separate issue from the interruptions themselves). But while those were a minor black mark against Biden, Ryan's lack of force tonight rendered his "strength" argument impotent.

This is just my take on things, not really a statement of fact. I'm just calling it how I saw it, from my perspective.

Well let me again point out two examples.

A: 2000, Al Gore frequently sighed audibly on air while Bush was talking, and in the Town Hall meeting, began walking up close to Bush. Now this may come off as being negative against your opponent as you suggest, but at the end of the day the public saw it as rude.

B: 1992 George H.W. Bush Sr. was caught checking his watch out of annoyance during a debate between Perot and Clinton. Again this type of attitude played horrible with the audience.

Now George H.W. Bush and Al Gore had great rhetoric and strength in their debates. But at the end of the day their rude attitude ended up hurting them with voters.

[mr_pikachu]

Fair enough. I'd only make two points in response to that -- which, again, are mere speculation at this point.

First, those were presidential debates which showed the demeanor of the main candidates who will stand out in people's minds. Any "meanness" of the running mates may have less of an effect on those impressions of the ticket -- it's hard for me to say at this point. Admittedly, I don't know my history of vice presidential debates well enough to speak much on this issue.

Second, the Romney-Ryan ticket clearly had the momentum entering this debate. I don't think that Biden's approach will accelerate that; my guess, which is nothing more than conjecture, is that it may have muddied the waters a bit. I wonder, at least, if this performance may have given voters a reason to doubt the conclusions that they drew after the first presidential debate. Romney looked so dominant over Obama in round one, but Ryan looked comparatively timid here, which might put a damper on the initial impression that the Romney-Ryan ticket was stronger than the Obama-Biden one. (That's assuming, of course, that they put any stock in the running mate's strength as showing the capabilities of the ticket as a whole.)

I just think that if anything, this debate will put the brakes on Romney's momentum, keeping him from running away with this. That's just my guess, and time will tell whether the polls validate my impression or whether they prove me wrong.

[Roy Karrde]

First, those were presidential debates which showed the demeanor of the main candidates who will stand out in people's minds. Any "meanness" of the running mates may have less of an effect on those impressions of the ticket -- it's hard for me to say at this point. Admittedly, I don't know my history of vice presidential debates well enough to speak much on this issue.

That can be very true, if you want here are some reactions from the media about Biden's attitude.

The New York Times’ Ashley Parker: “Biden’s grin is Chesire Cat caliber.”

PBS’ Jeff Greenfield: “Biden has always had a smile that at times is really, really inappropriate.”

MSNBC’s S.E. Cupp: “Biden needs to laugh a little less through the Libya, Middle East, nuclear Iran segment.”

Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza: “Ok. I have decided. I find the Biden smile slightly unsettling.”

Townhall.com’s Guy Benson: “Will Biden laugh his ass off at the terrible economy, too?”

BuzzFeed’s Ben Smith: “So did Biden practice laughing at Ryan???”

ABC’s Rick Klein: “Biden on verge of breaking down in laughter when Ryan talks.”

Washington Times’ Emily Miller: “Biden laughing when he disagrees with Ryan is so annoying. Like a child in time out.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz293CR5o61

Second, the Romney-Ryan ticket clearly had the momentum entering this debate. I don't think that Biden's approach will accelerate that; my guess, which is nothing more than conjecture, is that it may have muddied the waters a bit. I wonder, at least, if this performance may have given voters a reason to doubt the conclusions that they drew after the first presidential debate. Romney looked so dominant over Obama in round one, but Ryan looked comparatively timid here, which might put a damper on the initial impression that the Romney-Ryan ticket was stronger than the Obama-Biden one. (That's assuming, of course, that they put any stock in the running mate's strength as showing the capabilities of the ticket as a whole.)

I just think that if anything, this debate will put the brakes on Romney's momentum, keeping him from running away with this. That's just my guess, and time will tell whether the polls validate my impression or whether they prove me wrong.

Yet was Romney-Ryan gaining on diseffective leftist, or on the middle shifting toward them. If it is the leftists then Biden did his job as he hammered home alot of red meat. If it was for the middle, then I can't see how Biden's performance changed anything.

#CNNUndecideds vote that the #VPdebate was a tie. One-third say Joe Biden won. One-third say Paul Ryan won. One-third are undecided.

CBS’s insta-poll had it 50/31 for Biden, although both candidates gained ground among undecideds.

CNBC says Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8%

Looks like largely a wash.

Edit again: CNN-ORC post-debate poll of Registered Voters: 48% said Ryan won. 44% said Biden won. Sampling error: +-5%. #CNNDebate

[mr_pikachu]

Interesting, because that really isn't what I expected. I still wonder what the long-term effect on the polls will be (and by long-term, I mean around three days to a week from now), when voters have forgotten most of the debate and remember particular talking points and the overall tone. Nonetheless, that does refute some of my initial thoughts on how this debate might sway voters, because I honestly thought it would have a strong, immediate impact toward the Obama/Biden ticket.

[Roy Karrde]

Interesting, because that really isn't what I expected. I still wonder what the long-term effect on the polls will be (and by long-term, I mean around three days to a week from now), when voters have forgotten most of the debate and remember particular talking points and the overall tone. Nonetheless, that does refute some of my initial thoughts on how this debate might sway voters, because I honestly thought it would have a strong, immediate impact toward the Obama/Biden ticket.

Curious question, is anyone going to remember the talking points, or the creepy/rude looks from Joe Biden?

I mean honestly I cannot remember a thing from the Sarah Palin vs Joe Biden debate other than the fact that she seemed to deviate from the questioning and go after what she wanted to talk about. There is not a talking point I can remember, but I sure as hell can remember her demeanor and how poorly that played.

Edit: AP Poll: Ryan 51%, Biden 43%

[mr_pikachu]

Sorry, I misspoke a little in my last post. I don't think "talking points" was the best term, as I was more thinking about some of the one-liners that hit home.

Hey, I've been working on a statistics project for hours while also analyzing the debate. The brain gets a little weary after awhile.

[Dark Sage]

Seems that Lindsay Lohan is supporting Mitt Romney.

Well, good... When I saw the headline that said she had made an endorsement, I was VERY afraid that she was supporting Obama.

My message to Romney and the rest of the GOP: You can have her!

Along with Ted Nugent, Hulk Hogan, and the other psycho celebrities who you seem to attract.

[Roy Karrde]

Seems that Lindsay Lohan is supporting Mitt Romney.

Well, good... When I saw the headline that said she had made an endorsement, I was VERY afraid that she was supporting Obama.

My message to Romney and the rest of the GOP: You can have her!

Along with Ted Nugent, Hulk Hogan, and the other psycho celebrities who you seem to attract.

well to be fair after Joe Biden's performance last night it is fair to say that Obama has already met their quota of drug addicted narcissists.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, since you seem so anxious to hear the truth about the security issue of the U.S. consolate attack, why don't you push for the truth about what actually happened there?

I keep hearing the same ridiculous lie from people (all of them Romney supporters) saying that the ambassador was sodomized and then shot.

These people watch too many movies. The truth of the matter is, he was taken to the hospital by a Libyan soldier, where he died 45 minutes later of smoke inhilation after doctors unsuccessfully tried to revive him.

Crazy stories like the one I keep hearing only add fuel to the fires started by idiots like Orly Taitz and Donald Trump, and make me question why Mr. Romney OR Mr. Obama want the job of running this country at all. I mean really, would you want to lead a nation full of ignorant jerks?

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, since you seem so anxious to hear the truth about the security issue of the U.S. consolate attack, why don't you push for the truth about what actually happened there?

I keep hearing the same ridiculous lie from people (all of them Romney supporters) saying that the ambassador was sodomized and then shot.

These people watch too many movies. The truth of the matter is, he was taken to the hospital by a Libyan soldier, where he died 45 minutes later of smoke inhilation after doctors unsuccessfully tried to revive him.

Crazy stories like the one I keep hearing only add fuel to the fires started by idiots like Orly Taitz and Donald Trump, and make me question why Mr. Romney OR Mr. Obama want the job of running this country at all. I mean really, would you want to lead a nation full of ignorant jerks?

How is that even close to being relevant. When I and many others on the right speak of learning the truth we are talking about why the Administration lied to the American Public. Why the requests for extra security was not met. Why did the State Department not see 9/11 as a potential attack day for our embassies in the middle east. Using a strawman of "these people" for a argument that has no relevance to the real questions that need to be answered is mischaracterising the argument.

By the way the whole sodomize thing, came from not Romney supporters, but a Lebanese news organization Tayyar.org that also credited AFP for it, AFP has since said they were not part of that report and asked the Tayyar.org to change the report.

Also the Libyan Free Press also says the same story. Does not mean it is true or not, but it shows how a story can start on the ground over there and be picked up over here.

[Dark Sage]

I know where it came from Roy. And it's sad that some people will believe the same Libyan news agencies that are known for publishing Al Qaida propaganda over our own.

My point is, this wasn't about the security issue at all. That's an actual concern that needs to be addressed.

I'm simply appalled by the ignorance that many people are showing going into this election. They're concentrating on completely false and downright ridiculous claims. I've even heard some stories today about how the Obama Administration fabricated the Bin Laden raid.

It's the same trend that made people think that Obama was a Muslim or that he didn't know the National Anthem, or so much other bullcrap during the 2008 campaign. I ask you... Are we really this gullible?

I mean really... If all these conspiracy theories were real, Donald Trump would have vanished without a trace a long time ago.

[Dark Sage]

Romney has made a lot of campagn promises. However, here are the things that he has promised to do on his FIRST DAY as President.

ENERGY

- Approve construction of the Keystone XL pipeline

- Sign an executive order boosting drilling

HEALTH CARE

- Sign an executive order that would pave the way to end Obamacare

IMMIGRATION

- Get started on a long-term plan to solve the problem of undocumented immigration

- Drop the lawsuit against Arizona for its measure cracking down on undocumented immigration

INTERNATIONAL

- Sign an executive order sanctioning China for unfair trade practices

- Reinstate the "Mexico City Policy," which bans U.S. funds from going to international family planning organizations that provide abortions

ECONOMY

- Submit a jobs package to Congress containing five bills and demand that the legislature act on them in 30 days:

•Reduce the corporate income tax rate to 25 percent

•Reinstate the president’s Trade Promotion Authority to facilitate negotiation of new trade agreements

•Explore opening more land for drilling

•Look at taking federal programs and returning responsibility to the states

•Cut non-security discretionary spending in the federal budget by 5 percent

OTHER

- Sign an executive order immediately eliminating Obama-era regulations that "unduly burden the economy or job creation"

- Fight to repeal Davis-Bacon Act, which requires that workers are paid prevailing wages on public works projects

- Sit down with Democrats and Republicans to promote bipartianism

Romney has said that he will do ALL THIS on his VERY FIRST DAY.

And if you believe he can actually do it all in one work day, then in the words of Al Sharpton, "I've got a bridge to sell ya!"