RI, MN, DE, CA get marriage equality. DOMA dies, and now the UK!

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Blame feminism. Our apologist society has to applaud any women who dare to be different because it 'empowers' them.

Conversely, men who do such things are perverse degenerates poisoning the minds of our children.

Fortunately, I see the youth culture is bringing equality. I mean anime. Yaoi fangirls enjoy yaoi and yuri fanboys enjoy yuri. And by extension, when a hetero watches two persons of his or her preferred sex making love together, the watcher doesn't have to close his or her eyes for a second.

[RedStarWarrior]

Magmar, your name is short for Barold, right?

Also, in regards to a Federal ruling on marriage equality, I'm referring to the government making gay marriage legal and taking that power away from the states. However, granting the same rights to gay couples in states that have legalized it is a step in the right direction.

[Dark Sage]

Here are the claims that have been made recently by people who oppose gay marriage:

Homosexuality is the same as bestiality.
Homosexuality is a sin that is second only to murder.
Legalizing gay marriage will lead to legalizing polygamy.
Gay politicians want to abolish traditional marriage.
Homosexuality is caused by the same "impuse" that causes crimes like arson.
Homosexuality is three times more dangerous to your health than smoking.
And my personal favorite, a "gay lobby" pressured Pope Benedict into resigning.

Sounds kind of ridiculous when you lump them all together, doesn't it?

My opinion? Anti-gay marriage people know that the days are numbered for their cause, and they're getting desperate.

[Magmar]

Let's play "Best of Rhode Island Senator Metts at the Marriage Equality Senate Hearing"!!

"I too believe that I am a sinner saved by grace. This is America"

"The bible is clear. God ordained marriage between one man and one woman."

"Satan and gunmen have come in the schools because prayers are gone from schools."

"Be not deceived, God is not mocked."

"Wrath of God for those who reject his commandments."

Oh, my jaw was sooo wide open as I listened to him say these things. Wide. Open. He used Satan as defense against marriage equality! SATAN.

[Dark Sage]

Magmar, I've heard lunatics say things like this since the whole deal started.

They're saying God is going to smite us, just like they did when the Supreme Court ruled that laws outlawing interracial marriage were unconstitutional.

Any decade now, right fellahs?

[Roy Karrde]

Legalizing gay marriage will lead to legalizing polygamy.

And the problem with that is? Mind you I am not against Gay Marriage but I cant see why we need to place artificial limits on marriage.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, the claim is not true, and it's silly.

[Lady Vulpix]

I don't see the connection between gay marriage and polygamy, I agree that it's silly.

Anyway, I think polygamy could lead to a lot of complications, and wherever it is/has been legal it has led to unfair treatment of the multiple spouses, and usually serious conflicts among them too. So no, Roy, I don't think legalizing polygamy would be a good idea. Perhaps you should try sharing the same spouse with a bunch of other guys and then you'll see my point.

Gay marriage, on the other hand, doesn't hurt anyone, so I think it should be legal everywhere.

[Roy Karrde]

I don't see the connection between gay marriage and polygamy, I agree that it's silly.

I would suggest then reading this article by a Gay Marriage Advocate then as to why those for Gay Marriage should embrace advocating for Polyamory.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/lee-st..._b_155476.html

Anyway, I think polygamy could lead to a lot of complications, and wherever it is/has been legal it has led to unfair treatment of the multiple spouses, and usually serious conflicts among them too. So no, Roy, I don't think legalizing polygamy would be a good idea. Perhaps you should try sharing the same spouse with a bunch of other guys and then you'll see my point.

Gay marriage, on the other hand, doesn't hurt anyone, so I think it should be legal everywhere.

By those arguments Polyamory doesn't hurt anyone either, could one spouse get more attention than other's like one child being favored over another? Of course, and if they know going in that may be a issue then who is it really hurting again?

[Oslo]

hurr digression

I'm a soft advocate of polygamy. There is a plausible connection between the same-sex marriage debate and the polygamy debate, as Roy's article points out, in that both conversations deal with the issue of consenting adults wanting to get hitched. The reason why I say "soft advocate" is because of all the twisted, abusive stuff that can come out of polygamist unions. I also imagine spousal/survivor benefits would be a bit of a mire to sort out. That said, I still see the merit in allowing polygamy, just as I think there's reason to permit incestuous marriages between consenting adults.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, here's another factor.

In some countries where polygamy IS legal, you can only have more than one spouse IF you have the finances to support all of them.

Think about that.

Ask anyone who is married how expensive it is to support a wife (and possibly kids), even in a two-income family, and then think of how it would be like if he had two wives.

To say this would cause problems would be an understatement.

I once asked someone who was in favor of "personhood" bills, if a fetus has all the rights of a citizen, could a man with a pregnant wife write off his unborn son as a dependent on his tax form? I doubt the IRS would accept that, but there'd be outcry for them to do so if these futile attempts to pass personhood laws succeed.

The IRS would likely have a problem with multiple spouses too. Your spouse is considered your next of kin and in most cases, your default heir. What happens if you're legally married to two people?

See what I mean? A married homosexual couple has none of these problems. Government agencies would just treat them as they would a heterosexual couple.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, here's another factor.

In some countries where polygamy IS legal, you can only have more than one spouse IF you have the finances to support all of them.

Think about that.

Ask anyone who is married how expensive it is to support a wife (and possibly kids), even in a two-income family, and then think of how it would be like if he had two wives.

To say this would cause problems would be an understatement

How a family is able to handle their finances and support whoever is none of our business and is in no way a excuse to not allow someone to wed.

[Katie]

There are quite a few dumb opinions in this thread, but

Blame feminism. Our apologist society has to applaud any women who dare to be different because it 'empowers' them.

Conversely, men who do such things are perverse degenerates poisoning the minds of our children.

Maybe I can't tell sarcasm staring me in the face, but do you seriously believe society's obsessive objectification of "lipstick lesbians" (porn, movies, music, college parties, etc etc) is at all a step in the progress of gender equality? Really? Personal anecdotes skewed because loltexas, but I've personally never seen someone who is against gay mens' rights be for lesbians' rights without the idiotic tagline of "unless both chicks are hot." Surprise - there are normal looking (ugly, fat, old, amputee, whatever) lesbians who'd like some acceptance too.

Edit: I'm all for the legality of polygamy. Consenting adults, closed doors, - who fucking cares. If a polygamist dies and needs their estate split up, you divide it equally. The same way you do if a single parent dies and has multiple children. There are complications to work out, but the right of all people to marry who they love should be worth the effort to figure it out.

[Zak]

Sorry a bit late to this, but:

DC isn't a state and I did not include it in the 10. Read my later post in which I named them all.

I did, that's what I counted.

Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, Maryland, Maine, New Hampshire, New York, Vermont, and Washington (also the District of Columbia).

That's still 9... and not counting DC that's 8. Plus Rhode Island is 9, so 41 no?

EDIT: OH, I see, I thought you meant "Washington (AKA District of Columbia)" rather than "Washington state (and also the District of Columbia)". This is one of those instances where the Oxford comma would really help.

[RedStarWarrior]

And the problem with that is? Mind you I am not against Gay Marriage but I cant see why we need to place artificial limits on marriage.

I also (if I am reading your post correctly) have no problem with polygamy IF it is with consenting adults. The problem I've noticed is that a lot of polygamists get involved (or start) cult-like groups and tend to be pedophiles as well. Of course, it could just be that those are the few.

Anyway, I know a few straight couples that have a third partner that is bisexual and lives with them. If polygamy were made legal, they would get married.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

Personal anecdotes skewed because loltexas, but I've personally never seen someone who is against gay mens' rights be for lesbians' rights without the idiotic tagline of "unless both chicks are hot." Surprise - there are normal looking (ugly, fat, old, amputee, whatever) lesbians who'd like some acceptance too.

I don't know if you are arguing with Blade here, rather than me, but let me give my personal own impulsive opinion-like anecdote: I can't stand watching naked men. Hetero porn makes me vomit.

[Lady Vulpix]

I find all kinds of porn disgusting, but I'm all for couples of any gender combination having sex in private. Even in groups if that's what they like, but I think there's more to marriage than just sex.

[Katie]

I don't know if you are arguing with Blade here, rather than me, but let me give my personal own impulsive opinion-like anecdote: I can't stand watching naked men. Hetero porn makes me vomit.

.....this isn't at all relevant to what I was saying. Congrats on hating sweaty man ass, I guess?

[Magmar]

And hooray, Delaware has now entered the 21st century as well!

[CaptainJigglypuff]

I don't know if you are arguing with Blade here, rather than me, but let me give my personal own impulsive opinion-like anecdote: I can't stand watching naked men. Hetero porn makes me vomit.

What makes me want to vomit is how no one has a problem with two women kissing and making out in public or in the media but as soon as a guy kisses another guy, he is practically crucified or it is done for humor. Being gay should not be the basis of a joke. I have nothing against lesbians but the absence of men being allowed to kiss without ridicule is hypocritical in my opinion. Also, I'm sick of women being allowed to show every part of their bodies in a mainstream film for however long as the director wants them to be but guys cannot do full frontal unless it is for either shock value or (AGAIN) supposed to be funny and some kind of joke. This doesn't really apply to Europe, just more of the US. And when the guy IS doing full frontal it is either for a split second or filmed at like 200 feet away so you can't see anything and yet in the movie Not Another Teen Movie, the foreign exchange girl was naked the entire time and even had close ups of her body. I am sick of how society allows women to be free with their bodies but not men!

[Lady Vulpix]

What you call being free with their bodies is what I would call being used as sexual objects for horny men. I think that is sexist and abusive, and it saddens me to see that so many women will allow themselves to be degraded like that just for money.

[ChobiChibi]

That's not really the point he is trying to make though. He's not talking about porn, he's talking about people out in the street, simply sharing an intimate moment (a kiss, nothing more). He's talking about movies, not porn, and it's true. Movie directors do make a big thing out of lesbian couples, and do seem to avoid gay men completely.

What's wrong with enjoying the clothes you wear though? Alright, so you would probably wouldn't class my choice of clothing as slutty, but I love short shorts. And I love low cut, tight fitting tops. Should I not wear them in fear of becoming a sexual object? I like to make the most of my tiny tits and my peachy bum because I'm a skinny Minnie, I'm not putting them away.

It's like the whole debate around women and rape and skimpy clothes. But lets not go into that, please...

[Dark Sage]

Not Another Teen Movie was a farce of a genre of movies that are themselves farces. It was meant to poke fun of the genre.

In other words, having the foreign exchange student naked the whole time was kind of the idea. It took a common stereotype found in such movies and took it to absurd proportions.

Pretty much every character in the whole movie was the same. An exaggeration of a sterotype found in a genre that is LOADED with stereoypes.

Understand.

[Lady Vulpix]

Becki: I'm not talking about short shorts (which men can also wear, and I also wear sometimes). I'm talking about the women who show up on TV in minuscule bathing suits while the camera spends most of the time focusing on their butts or boobs, which are nearly always artificial and huge.

[CaptainJigglypuff]

DarkSage, I know Not AnotherTeen Movie was making fun of a genre but I mentioned the one girl only because she is the best example of what I find vomit inducing. Hollywood mainstream movie producers are literally shove naked women down our throats now and yet men are NEVER shown from the front naked UNLESS it supposed to be part of a joke (e.g. Forgetting Sarah Marshall) or for shock value (e.g. The Crying Game.) Even THEN the guy is shown from a far distance. I'm SICK of seeing naked women's breasts ALL the time!

[CaptainJigglypuff]

Becki: I'm not talking about short shorts (which men can also wear, and I also wear sometimes). I'm talking about the women who show up on TV in minuscule bathing suits while the camera spends most of the time focusing on their butts or boobs, which are nearly always artificial and huge.

That's ALSO what I'm disgusted by. And then the camera focuses on those body part SOOOOOOOOO much, they literally take up most of the screen and you can't see anything BUT those parts!

[Oslo]

What makes me want to vomit is how no one has a problem with two women kissing and making out in public or in the media but as soon as a guy kisses another guy, he is practically crucified or it is done for humor. Being gay should not be the basis of a joke. I have nothing against lesbians but the absence of men being allowed to kiss without ridicule is hypocritical in my opinion. Also, I'm sick of women being allowed to show every part of their bodies in a mainstream film for however long as the director wants them to be but guys cannot do full frontal unless it is for either shock value or (AGAIN) supposed to be funny and some kind of joke. This doesn't really apply to Europe, just more of the US. And when the guy IS doing full frontal it is either for a split second or filmed at like 200 feet away so you can't see anything and yet in the movie Not Another Teen Movie, the foreign exchange girl was naked the entire time and even had close ups of her body. I am sick of how society allows women to be free with their bodies but not men!

Your examples don't really show women possessing control over their bodies. They speak to a culture in which female bodies and female intimacy are sexualized, sensationalized and exploited for attention. Not Another Teen Movie was written, produced and directed entirely by men. Where does female freedom enter the picture there?

While depictions of female intimacy are far more common than depictions of male intimacy, queer culture generally favours gay white males (though those portrayals often get seriously fucked up as well). As of GLAAD's latest "Where We Are on TV" report, there are three times as many gay men as lesbians on television. It speaks to a society that is okay watching hawt women hug and kiss and stuff, but what happens when those women get butch cuts and tatted up and put on an extra fifty pounds and move next door and raise kids? Welp, we're not quite so cool with that, either in real life or in the media.

But yeah, I'm okay with more peen getting shown.

[Dark Sage]

If you thought the movie was bad, you should have seen the DVD-released R-rated version. (Actually, I take that back. Save your money.)

Anyway, you're acting like it was a blockbuster, and it was not. It was moderately well-received by audiences (I think most folks who went to see it were teenage boys) but not by critics. Rotten Tomatoes gave it 28% (making it officially "rotten" on their scale) and their critique was, "NATM has some funny moments, but the movie requires the audience to have familiarity with the movies being spoofed and a tolerance for toilet and sexual humor to be truly effective."

In other words, if you're a fan of bad taste and vulgar humor (and I know there are a lot of folks like that, otherwise shows like Family Guy would never have be successful), sure, it was funny.

Didn't think so myself...

Oh, by the way. The name of the character in question was "Areola". (Yeah, very lame pun, right?)

[Nall]

I'm sorry, but this:

Blame feminism. Our apologist society has to applaud any women who dare to be different because it 'empowers' them.

Conversely, men who do such things are perverse degenerates poisoning the minds of our children.

is completely wrong. It's the straight men who're putting women rubbing all over each other and making out into movies, and it's the men who have declared two men kissing to be icky. Blaming that on feminism is just ignorant. Pretending that women are the ones who control what makes it onto mainstream television or big blockbuster films, and they're the ones telling us how much lipstick lesbians rock, is laughable.

The distinction of "men kissing icky, women kissing hot" is solidly rooted in misogyny. Straight men are the ones who set those definitions, not women.

Speaking of GLAAD, I find it kinda funny that even the queer subculture focuses on the white men, even though they're supposed to be all about the underdogs. The only thing ickier than a gay man is a butch lesbian, one of those slutty bisexuals, or a transgender person, after all. I honestly wonder how many heterosexual people (or hell, even gay people) even know what the B or the T in "LGBT" stand for, let alone any of the other letters they keep tacking on there. Sure, there may be three times as many gay men on TV than lesbians, but can you name even one bisexual person? It doesn't count if they later "come out" as gay or write it off as "experimenting".

For the record I'm in favor of anybody kissing whoever they want, wherever they want, and I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone's naked body showing up on my screen.

Sidenote:

That's ALSO what I'm disgusted by. And then the camera focuses on those body part SOOOOOOOOO much, they literally take up most of the screen and you can't see anything BUT those parts!

Miranda would like a word with you.

[CaptainJigglypuff]

Sidenote:

Miranda would like a word with you.

I don't get the pic at all. All I see is the guy....

[Magmar]

I'm sorry, but this:

is completely wrong. It's the straight men who're putting women rubbing all over each other and making out into movies, and it's the men who have declared two men kissing to be icky. Blaming that on feminism is just ignorant. Pretending that women are the ones who control what makes it onto mainstream television or big blockbuster films, and they're the ones telling us how much lipstick lesbians rock, is laughable.

The distinction of "men kissing icky, women kissing hot" is solidly rooted in misogyny. Straight men are the ones who set those definitions, not women.

Speaking of GLAAD, I find it kinda funny that even the queer subculture focuses on the white men, even though they're supposed to be all about the underdogs. The only thing ickier than a gay man is a butch lesbian, one of those slutty bisexuals, or a transgender person, after all. I honestly wonder how many heterosexual people (or hell, even gay people) even know what the B or the T in "LGBT" stand for, let alone any of the other letters they keep tacking on there.

*Raises hand* Many of my friends are pansexual or bisexual, and my biffle is a trans* man. Of all my dear "Senshi" friends (yes we have a clique and yes we call ourselves Senshi for the lulz and the love and beauty attack-u at the gay bars), I think only two are straight. Our dear Moon and Neptune are bisexual, Mercury Venus and Uranus are gay men, Mars is a trans man, Jupiter, Luna and Saturn are pansexual, our Chibi-Moon <3 is an adorable little lesbian, and Pluto, Tuxedo Zach, & Cosmos are straight. Yay! (And OH THE LULZ on the city bus when we've been drinking after a night and start talking about our situation in senshi inuendo. All the lulz.)

Sure, there may be three times as many gay men on TV than lesbians, but can you name even one bisexual person? It doesn't count if they later "come out" as gay or write it off as "experimenting".

I don't watch much TV, but I know that Captain Jack Harkness is openly bisexual and many Doctor Who characters identify as lesbian (like Vastra and Jenny <3 my favorite characters ever on the show!)

Also on DeGrassi, which I do adore, LOL, Imogen Moreno is bisexual and has been in the only stable relationship to span the current series (she dates lesbian Fiona Coyne), but has dated boys as well. Adam Torres in the current series is trans* and the episodes dedicated to him are simply beautiful. That's the only reason I got into the show and still watch it! There's Muslim characters, the beauty queen is a woman of color, and well yeah. Woot for diversity!

Unfortunately, these programs are British and Canadian, and I can't think of one that's American and really gets into these issues. The only American program I watch is RuPaul's Drag Race and, well, yeah, all the gays (and occasionally a trans* woman)

~*~*~**~*~*~**~**etc~*~*~*~

WOOT FOR MINNESOTA! Minnesota's House passed Marriage Equality 75 to 51. It's expected to easily pass the Senate, and the Minnesota Governor has promised to sign the bill into law. And then there was 12!

[Dark Sage]

Man, three states in less than thirty days?

Here that sound? That's the sound of Santorum and Bachmann hitting their skulls against the wall as they start to realize why no-one was listening to them.

[RedStarWarrior]

@Magypoo, both of those shows are popular in the US. A good number of hit US shows are now produced in Canada anyway.

Also, I'm straight, but I'd have a threesome with 10 and Jack.

[Mikachu Yukitatsu]

*Raises hand* Many of my friends are pansexual or bisexual, and my biffle is a trans* man. Of all my dear "Senshi" friends (yes we have a clique and yes we call ourselves Senshi for the lulz and the love and beauty attack-u at the gay bars), I think only two are straight. Our dear Moon and Neptune are bisexual, Mercury Venus and Uranus are gay men, Mars is a trans man, Jupiter, Luna and Saturn are pansexual, our Chibi-Moon <3 is an adorable little lesbian, and Pluto, Tuxedo Zach, & Cosmos are straight. Yay! (And OH THE LULZ on the city bus when we've been drinking after a night and start talking about our situation in senshi inuendo. All the lulz.)

Can I join your group as Queen Blind Guardian? (A variant of Queen Metalia)

\m/ (o)m(o) \m/

[Lady Vulpix]

I'm sorry, but this:

is completely wrong. It's the straight men who're putting women rubbing all over each other and making out into movies, and it's the men who have declared two men kissing to be icky. Blaming that on feminism is just ignorant. Pretending that women are the ones who control what makes it onto mainstream television or big blockbuster films, and they're the ones telling us how much lipstick lesbians rock, is laughable.

The distinction of "men kissing icky, women kissing hot" is solidly rooted in misogyny. Straight men are the ones who set those definitions, not women.

Speaking of GLAAD, I find it kinda funny that even the queer subculture focuses on the white men, even though they're supposed to be all about the underdogs. The only thing ickier than a gay man is a butch lesbian, one of those slutty bisexuals, or a transgender person, after all. I honestly wonder how many heterosexual people (or hell, even gay people) even know what the B or the T in "LGBT" stand for, let alone any of the other letters they keep tacking on there. Sure, there may be three times as many gay men on TV than lesbians, but can you name even one bisexual person? It doesn't count if they later "come out" as gay or write it off as "experimenting".

For the record I'm in favor of anybody kissing whoever they want, wherever they want, and I'm perfectly comfortable with anyone's naked body showing up on my screen.

Sidenote:

Miranda would like a word with you.

I agree with the first 2 paragraphs.

I can name a few bisexual TV characters: 13 from Dr. House, Captain Jack Harkness from Torchwood (and Doctor Who), and just about everyone else who was born in the same area and time period as Jack. And probably the 9th Doctor, although he wasn't completely clear about it.

And if written stories are allowed, read "A Fisherman of the Inland Sea" by Ursula K. Le Guin, and you'll read about a planet where everyone is bisexual.

[Magmar]

Gabi, I love you even more for being so down with British television. <3

I think the Doctor is pansexual, but has generally pursued women in the recent series. Captain Jack is bi, but Ianto and Gwen might be pansexual? Not sure what to make of Ianto and Gwen just yet, I've only seen the first series of Torchwood. (But I love love love Toshiko!)

Edit: Also of note in American media is Josh Whedon, who has always incorporated diversity (in terms of sexual orientation) into his programs (two examples: Buffy the Vampire Slayer; Dollhouse). Dollhouse is probably the single most inclusive program I've watched to date from American television. The whole thing's on Netflix/Amazon Prime; I suggest any sci-fi lovers check it out! Especially if you liked Eliza Dushku in other programs... she really shines in this one.

[Lady Vulpix]

I watched Dollhouse. I didn't like the premise or the ending much, but I agree that her acting was amazing. I'm not sure in which way it was inclusive, though. People could be 'rewired' to have any inclinations or fall in love with anyone (for a while, anyway), but that was imposed and unnatural.

And Magmar, you'd probably love my brother (he's married, though). He visited London during his honeymoon and said that every person he saw there was hot.

[Magmar]

Ah, but everyone in London IS really ridiculously good looking and stylish! At least the downtown part... and especially #TPMUK

[Dark Sage]

I think it kinda depends WHICH Doctor you're talking about, Magmar. Lol.

By the way, I have at least three bisexual friends. Not going to give their names, however.

[CaptainJigglypuff]

Man, three states in less than thirty days?

Here that sound? That's the sound of Santorum and Bachmann hitting their skulls against the wall as they start to realize why no-one was listening to them.

Bachmann yes but Santorum no. I think everyone stopped listening to him after his "rape babies are a wonderful gift from God" statement. The other Senetor who said it (I forgot his name but he represented Illinois) said the same exact thing and lost some election. Let's see what a "wonderful gift from God" a baby concieved after rape is when it happen in his OWN family....