Amy Winehouse Is Dead

[Magmar]

Asi, I'm glad my post made you think twice. I am by no means upset at any members for what they said about her! I recognize she wasn't really known as much for her talent as she was for her trainwreck of a life. In fact the only reason I got into Amy's music in the first place is because we used to play it at my store and I really liked it

[Bear]

I have no judgments on her life or her choices. It's redundant to say her choices were bad ones, because it's been drilled into the ground. We all make bad choices in life, and some are even worse than choosing drugs.

My only gripe with the situation was using words like "genius" and "lost talent" to describe her, because I felt (read: in my opinion) these were inaccurate. Being a musician myself, I felt her songs were shallow instrumentally and the lyrics, as genuine as they might have been, lacking flow and purpose. Ok, so you're a drug addict and you want to admit it to the world? Hold a press conference. Want to write a song about it? Fine, but leave something for our imaginations. If you want to send us a message in your song, you never come right out and say it. Choose your lyrics carefully so they make us think, not just bombard us with "I'm a drug addict and I refused rehab because I'm strong". I was unimpressed with her songwriting ability, and borderline frightened by her natural voice when I heard it without the aid of auto tuning and editing software.

I respect her effort in the fight against addiction. I respect her willingness to admit her issues publicly. I respect her attempts to form the thoughts into song. These things make her many things: courageous, strong-willed, and dedicated. They do not, however, make her a talented musician.

Please remember that this post is entirely my own opinion, and not being distributed as fact in any way shape or form. Obviously Magmar and I have two different tastes and definitions for what music and talent are, and I respect his opinion just as much as my own.

PS - lol @ sugar glider peeing on router. I struggled to take the rest of the post seriously after reading that, sorry Magmar . I did my best though!

[Classtoise]

Would you people mind stopping the flaming.

Being on drugs, having a sad life, suicide... no matter the way you put it, a human being died here. If people are so cold as to not have a glimpse of compassion for a human being who died (no matter in what way), then fine. But that doesn't give any reason to go on attacking other fellow TPMers because they also have the right to express themselves and have something called "feelings of compassion for human beings".

EDIT: In the same way,we -people who have some kind of compassion for when a human being dies-, do not have any right to attack people who don't give a damn about someone who "wasted her life".

The thing is: let people express themselves and stop the flaming.

Lots of people die.
Sometimes it's tragic (Norway), sometimes it's because you wrote a song about not wanting to get help for your drug problem (Amy Winehouse).

I care about one of these situations. What bugs ME is people acting like it's cold to not care about a celebrity when this exact death happens to people all the time and no one cares because it's not plastered on TV.

Also nice "totally subtle" shot at the end.
"Stop flaming, you cold, heartless monsters who don't feel compassion. I mean us awesome wonderful people shouldn't either."


Also can we stop calling addiction a disease?
It just makes it sound like the addict has zero control over it. People with HIV or Cancer don't go "Well, maybe ONE blind blood injection won't hurt" or "Well, maybe ONE clump of cancerous cells won't hurt". And addicts don't get a call from the doctor at midnight that "I dunno how to tell you this...it's cocaine."

Calling it a disease implies that it was never their choice. And while there are a lot of addicts who realize their mistake too late, all using the word "disease" does is act like the person is some poor soul who just rolled snake-eyes in the genetic craps game. And they all meet literally the exact same end. It's not like they're going anywhere after they die, so it's kind of unfair that they be labeled the exact same way.

And I could see if it was someone who did something, but Amy Winehouse? What did she do? Screech on stage about how awesome drugs are and fall over a lot?
Woo.
Here let me muster up some care.
Hold on.
Hold on.
Here it comes.
Almost...
Nope. Didn't work. Don't care.

[Heald]

Sorry Magmar, perhaps my first posts on the subject were blunt and disrespectful in the immediate wake of her death, but I view her death in perspective. Yes, it's tragic that human being, someone's daughter, someone's godmother etc. died. Any human being who dies unjustifiably is tragic.

As for her music, well, it's an opinion whether or not she was good or bad, but frankly I found her music abysmally dull. Normally if someone as bad as I found Amy came along I would ignore it, but the fact you couldn't open a newspaper or read a news website without reading about her latest wacky antics did push it over the edge for me. Plus one of the people in my corridor at Uni had a habit of blasting out Valerie and Back to Black constantly over and over from about 9pm to 11pm nearly every night. I guess it's not Amy's fault that idiots fawned over her and the media couldn't stop talking about her, but now it's become so much more ridiculous now she's dead. Comparisons to Hendrix and Cobain? One of the greatest talents of our time? The hyperbole is sickening. Even Microsoft tried to get in on it by sending messages to people saying they should show their support by buying Winehouse albums for their Zune. Not to mention Wikipedia has her death as one of the top stories on their front page. The only musician in recent memory who had their untimely death documented in such a way was Michael Jackson, whose reign as king of pop reached across generations, whereas Amy had a very niche audience by comparison. His death also came completely out of the blue; she, by comparison, displayed the signs of someone who would probably fall seriously ill or drop dead at any point. Michael was in the middle of preparations for his biggest series of shows; she was booed off a stage in Belgrade pissed out of her tiny mind and mumbling incoherently. I struggle to see why the latter was so beloved. Again, she cannot be blamed for other people becoming hysterical over her life and death, and perhaps that's what actually annoys me about her.

At least she can rest in peace now, even if she had a lifetime of joy that she will now never live out.

[Magmar]

Also can we stop calling addiction a disease?
It just makes it sound like the addict has zero control over it. People with HIV or Cancer don't go "Well, maybe ONE blind blood injection won't hurt" or "Well, maybe ONE clump of cancerous cells won't hurt". And addicts don't get a call from the doctor at midnight that "I dunno how to tell you this...it's cocaine."

This is going to be that rare time where I delve into a bit of flaming back, but wow, that is by far the most ignorant, disgusting point of view I've encountered on the forums. You don't know the first thing about addiction, clearly, and have no ground to speak on it.

addiction = disease.
addiction = disease.
addiction = disease.
Go do some research and get back to me when you're educated on the subject. Until then,

MAGMAR used FIRE BLAST

[Classtoise]

No.
Addictions are serious.
People with addictions should seek help.
People with diseases did not get a CHOICE.
They did not CHOOSE to be stricken with their illness.

THAT is the game changer.
Addiction is terrible. I am not saying it's GOOD. I am not saying "Addicts are just a bunch of wusses who can't quit."
I AM saying that claiming someone who does coke is just as bad off as someone with cancer is INSULTING to the person with cancer.

This is the biggest problem I have with this crap. When you tell people addiction is a disease it's the same as admitting you have no power in the 12 step program. It is a LIE. You DO have power. You have to take the power back FROM the drug. When you admit that you have no power all it does is line up the other 11 steps to shove you into church to claim this is the only way to get clean (literally! Go look up the 12 Step Program.)

No, Addiction is not a disease. It's not easy, but it's not something you just happened to get through bad genetic lotto. It's NOT outside of your control (A man with Alzheimer's never said "Man, I could really go for a mental haze that prevents me from remembering day to day functions")
A LOT of addicts DO wake up and go "Man, I could really go for some coke."
Hence, addiction.

Now, are all addicts bad people? No. Some of them didn't realize the mistake they were making. Some didn't think it was "that bad" until they were in their own personal hell. Some people think it's as easy as walking into rehab and walking out clean (Without money, "Rehabs" not just something you stumble into off the streets). And some realized all this far too late.

But again, calling it a disease makes rehab EVEN HARDER because it doesn't target the most important issue: WHY did you turn to drugs. If it was personal ("I needed an escape from the pain"), then they need to figure out how to help (psychiatric help). If it was something else, rehab can help.

But saying "It's a disease!" means that they're just shrugging off responsibility and insisting it's someone ELSES fault (in this case, their deity/luck/whatever) and not their own.

ADDICTION = ADDICTION
ADDICTION = ADDICTION
ADDICTION = ADDICTION

[Asilynne]

I think addiction is a psychological condition like depression or bi-polar syndromes. Some people can be predisposed to addiction, like they are more at risk to having a problem.

And while we are on the subject of choices why don't we all choose to cool it down and quit baiting each other. Nothing good is down the road this is headed, and I think we can all agree that Death = Sad no matter who it is or what their problems were

[mr_pikachu]

Yeah, I'm with Asi on this. There's no need to turn someone's death into an opportunity for personal quarrels. She was a successful (even if some of us disagree on the talent question) musician, and it's a shame that she passed away (again, even if we acknowledge that a tremendous number of people die every day). Additionally, while I concede that I don't have much personal experience in the matter, addiction is a horrible thing which is difficult to escape and which many people enter without fully realizing the ramifications of their initial abuses, but it is something which is worth treatment by others and by oneself nonetheless.

If we're going to discuss the "talent" question, how about we couch it in more tangible terms? For instance, did anyone here have any CDs or other tracks on their playlist (outside of Rock Band tunes and such)? I didn't, myself, but I'm curious about how broad her fanbase actually was.

[Shadow Wolf]

Classtoise: *sigh* You didn't get the point. I never said people who care are awesome (in fact, I would hate someone who would call me awesome unless he/she has a valid explanation for this). If you think of me and Gavin as a hypocrite, so be it. But to me, Gavin is one of the most honest writers I've ever met. My post was to stop the flaming, but if you took it personal, then for fighting you need two and I'm on vacation.

People have different tastes. Maybe some might not like her music, and some might consider her awesome (is like Lady Gaga, she has sold a lot of records even thought I hate her music, but some people like her songs)

Magmar: As I said before, flaming is not good. Not everyone has the same opinions and not everyone thinks the same way.

As for the addiction issue: The American Society of Addiction Medicine has this definition for Addiction: Addiction is a primary, chronic disease of brain reward, motivation, memory and related circuitry. Dysfunction in these circuits leads to characteristic biological, psychological, social and spiritual manifestations. This is reflected in the individual pursuing reward and/or relief by substance use and other behaviors. The addiction is characterized by impairment in behavioral control, craving, inability to consistently abstain, and diminished recognition of significant problems with one’s behaviors and interpersonal relationships. Like other chronic diseases, addiction can involve cycles of relapse and remission. Without treatment or engagement in recovery activities, addiction is progressive and can result in disability or premature death.

Asi: Thanks, you did get my point.

[Deadwood_Zen]

Have any of you judging her and her music heard any of her songs BESIDE "Rehab"? Two things:
1) That was not her best song, by far. Also, I want to know how you all describe "talent" in a musician, since apparently you think music can be judged in black and white. You are seriously an ignorant cunt if you honestly think you can.

2) You don't just judge a musician by ONE of their songs. Songs reflect on that person in that moment of time they wrote it. No person is EVER defined defined by just one moment in their life. At the time she didn't want to go to Rehab, even if she later changed her mind. Don't tell me you can't relate to that in any way and that you've never changed your mind.


Here's some more of her songs:




Weird, how not all of her songs are about her not wanting to go to Rehab, huh?

[Magmar]

I have both of her albums and all of her B-sides. "You Know I'm No Good" is definitely my favorite Amy song!

@Shadow Wolf: Thank you for providing the definition of addiction. My point was that it is wrong to say that addiction is not a disease, because it is, it's like saying Ireland is not an island, or Neptune is not a planet, or a Chevrolet Corsica is not a car.

[Bear]

Also, I want to know how you all describe "talent" in a musician, since apparently you think music can be judged in black and white. You are seriously an ignorant cunt if you honestly think you can.

I'm only going to address this point because the others I don't have an opinion on. You most certainly can judge a musician's talent in black and white, provided you're evaluating them from a strictly technical point of view. In order to be a talented singer, a musician must be able to accurately stay on pitch and hit notes properly. There is no gray area here, either you hit a note or you don't. If you don't hit a note, music sounds bad. Unfortunately editing software and autotuning has become so prevalent in today's industry that it's difficult to distinguish between the genuinely good singers and the bad ones without actually hearing unedited recordings. The reason I say Amy Winehouse is not a talented musician is because I have heard several unedited recordings of her singing, and she can not stay on key. She's morbidly flat most of the time, and it's painful to listen to. Sure, once all the editing and tuning is done her recordings may sound good, but that is just a facade. Amy Winehouse was about as talented a natural singer as Britney Spears. Now, this is just speaking of her singing talent. She might have been more instrumentally gifted, but I cannot say I've heard her play an instrument so I don't know. Likewise, she might have had a talent for songwriting or at least lyricism. But she was a crappy singer, and you will never be able to convince me otherwise.

And I am not an ignorant cunt, thank you very much. I would much appreciate you not use such terms in the future. Have a pleasant day.

[Whitlea]

I feel sorry for those who are addicted to drugs. It's like people who smoke or drink? It's like unless you are famous or have money, people look down on you and think you're an idiot who can easily just drop whatever addiction it may be. I think any addiction is stupid as it can cause problems later on. This could even include my tea obsession or gaming (I used to forget to eat). True, some addictions are worse than others and much more serious, but a human being was still seemingly trapped. I dunno. I thought what Amy did was stupid but I didn't know her. I can't judge someone I don't know. There might have even been more to it than is known. However, death is never pleasant. Addiction is never easy to witness or go through. And sometimes, people shrugging off those things aren't nice either. However, it's life. These things have always been about and probably always will be. Weither it becomes less common or more so, it exists. And sadly, it's something we need to accept. I'm not saying throw your hands up and say, 'FINE, ruin your life and career' but try not to judge someone you haven't known closely for a few years. This is all my opinion and view, of course. I'm just a giant softie with some things.

[Gavin Luper]

If we're going to discuss the "talent" question, how about we couch it in more tangible terms? For instance, did anyone here have any CDs or other tracks on their playlist (outside of Rock Band tunes and such)? I didn't, myself, but I'm curious about how broad her fanbase actually was.

I didn't own any of her music, but I knew "Rehab" and thought it was catchy, and I quite liked "Valerie".

It's interesting to see the discussion moving on to the concept of addiction. This interests me a lot on a professional level, since I just did Addiction Studies as part of my Honours course and just wrote a paper about the different types of addiction and what constitutes one, and what addiction actually is.

The bottom line at this stage is that nobody can agree on what addiction is. Even organisations like the World Health Organisation and American Psychiatry Association can't actually pin down or agree upon what is meant by "addiction" - to the point where neither of those institutions even uses the word "addiction" anymore.

There are about a dozen or more theoretical models of drug use and/or addiction. Some people argue that it is a disease (the disease model - used by AA, for example - which implies the individual has something innate within themselves that makes them unable to handle psychoactive drugs), some people label it immoral behaviour (moral models - like some religions which demonise any use of psychoactive drugs), some people say it is a weakness of the will (temperance models, quite similar to moral) and, importantly, there are many, especially in modern-day discourse, who argue that addiction is simply a maladaptive learned behaviour.

This definition of addiction as a maladaptive learned behaviour is what Addiction Studies courses - at least in Australia - teach, and it's what objectively makes the most sense to me after reviewing everything.

Basically, we are all dependent on a number of things, and this is normal human behaviour. For example, Gavin might be dependent on his car, his boyfriend, his morning coffee, and a daily hit of heroin. We can be dependent on anything and this dependence stretches along a continuum, from mild to severe, depending on how we feel if it's taken away. For example, if Gavin's morning coffee is taken away, he might miss it but be otherwise fine to get through the day; he is mildly dependent on caffeine. However, if you take away his daily fix of heroin, he becomes extremely dysphoric and suicidal; we could easily label this dependence severe given what happens if the object is taken away. Thus, a dependence can be problematic or unproblematic, but is not necessarily an addiction.

A drug dependence becomes an drug addiction - at least, this is what I would argue, along with the other academics I referenced in the paper - when a person continues to use it in spite of the fact that they know they shouldn't. They experience a state of "cognitive conflict" - they realise the drug is affecting them adversely - either in terms of their health, legal problems, relationship problems or their job - however they are simply so dependent that they will use the drug despite struggling with themselves about it. If they try to abstain and become depressed or dysphoric or suicidal, for example, they might start to justify that using the drug will stop them feeling this bad, and the promise of immediate pleasure outweighs the potential of ensuing pain later on.

Okay, that's probably sufficiently boring, but for those who are interested in the whole "what is addiction?" line of discussion, hope that offers some level of insight.

[Magmar]

Marry me, Gavin. <3

I'm a grad student in psych (specifically: industrial/organizational psychology, under the guise of an MBA lol) and what I found most interesting about your response is how terminology differs slightly across borders. You mentioned cognitive conflict; I know it as cognitive dissonance!

[Gavin Luper]

Marry me, Gavin. <3

I'm a grad student in psych (specifically: industrial/organizational psychology, under the guise of an MBA lol) and what I found most interesting about your response is how terminology differs slightly across borders. You mentioned cognitive conflict; I know it as cognitive dissonance!

Note to self: First time harping on about uni work has garnered me a proposal. Score! ^_^

Yeah, I know some books/articles I read mentioned cognitive dissonance - they were probably the American ones in hindsight. Cognitive conflict has a nice ring to it I reckon.

I think a psych degree would've been really interesting. (Was it?) I'm doing BA Honours and it's in Creative Writing, which is my passion, but learning about psychology in order to write about it was truly fascinating. If I ever had the chance to do a second degree or something, I think Addiction Studies or Psychology would totally be the way to go, it really intrigues me.

[shazza]

If you take away the Internet from an increased number of people, they would experience psychologically worse affects than the removal of coffee. The concept of Internet Addiction is intriguing for it’s still in large debate amongst the psychiatry community.

I want to study psychology more and more!

[Gavin Luper]

I agree - I think the concept of internet addiction is fascinating, too - and very real. If the internet were shut down tomorrow, apart from the logistical problems society would run into, I can imagine some kind of post-apocalyptic rioting going on from people who have absolutely no idea what to do with themselves.

[Bear]

you could accomplish a similar effect by just removing Youtube and keeping the internet intact.

[Magmar]

What? But then, how will I listen to Rebecca Black every day???????? ;[ ;[ ;[

[Asilynne]

[Jeff]

Oh, that reminds me. It's Friday!

[MeLoVeGhOsTs]

Addictions all the way.

She made okay music, she died yes, but leaving behind a legacy makes it all worth while.

[Classtoise]

I think addiction is a psychological condition like depression or bi-polar syndromes. Some people can be predisposed to addiction, like they are more at risk to having a problem.

And while we are on the subject of choices why don't we all choose to cool it down and quit baiting each other. Nothing good is down the road this is headed, and I think we can all agree that Death = Sad no matter who it is or what their problems were

Eh, I feel like an "addictive personality" is kind of a cop-out, too.

Psychologically there's lots of things that factor into it. If you see someone hurt by it, you'd be less likely to succumb, perhaps.
Like me. I drink, but I'm not an alcoholic, because I've seen how alcohol destroyed two of my uncles lives. One of them even committed suicide. So I'm more cautious of what it can do.

Likewise, someone who's grown up knowing someone who was addicted but never saw the darker side might think it's great.

Magmar: Apologies, but I see "Addiction is a disease" used much more like "Cancer is a disease" rather than "Addiction is a self-inflicted mental disease". It seems too often people just use it to shrug and refuse help.
"Dude you need to stop smoking."
"Why don't you just tell a kid with leukimia to stop being sick!?"
(Yes, I've heard people claim this. Not quite as EXTREME, but claim "It's a disease oh well").

[Shadow Wolf]

What about removing facebook?

Magmar and Gavin: My cheeks hurt for so much laughing at those last posts. And you made a lot of names go through my mind while reading your posts (Sigmund Freud, Brutus Frederik Skinner, Albert Bandura, Ivan Pavlov, ugh, so many...)

Classtoise: I can't believe you've somehow gone through the same situation I have (in my case, My uncle died of alcohol abuse, my grandpa is almost on the same route, and I have to endure every weekend and then my parents heated argues when they're both drunk).

In a way, I also have to agree with you on people using comments like that as an excuse to not trying to overcome their habits

-Smoker: I hate people who suicide
-A friend of mine: But smoking is suicidal too
-Smoker: Of course not
-Friend: You are ruining your lungs, your teeth, you can have cancer, and your doing it yourself
-Smoker: suicide and smoking are two different things.
-Friend: sighs

Oh, and a sarcastic one I heard somewhere: "Smoking kills slowly. It's okay, I'm not in a hurry"

[Gavin Luper]

What? But then, how will I listen to Rebecca Black every day???????? ;[ ;[ ;[

I only listen to her on one day each week! Guess which one?!?!?!

What about removing facebook?

Haha - I read an article recently where someone wrote that, were facebook acted out in the real world instead, it would basically be millions of people running around shoving a picture of themselves in people's faces and screaming, "Do you like it? Well, do you?!"

In a way, I also have to agree with you on people using comments like that as an excuse to not trying to overcome their habits

-Smoker: I hate people who suicide
-A friend of mine: But smoking is suicidal too
-Smoker: Of course not
-Friend: You are ruining your lungs, your teeth, you can have cancer, and your doing it yourself
-Smoker: suicide and smoking are two different things.
-Friend: sighs

Oh, and a sarcastic one I heard somewhere: "Smoking kills slowly. It's okay, I'm not in a hurry"

I have to admit, back when I was a smoker (albeit fairly briefly), I was completely aware that I was doing it because I was self-destructive and didn't give a crap about myself. I don't believe that's the case for every single person who smokes - they probably did it for the experience or to rebel, which is exciting, too - but nicotine is a real clingy bitch, and then you get hooked. Apparently tobacco is the only, or one of the only, psychoactive drugs that has no demonstrated theraputic benefits. Like, alcohol can reduce the risk of some diseases in very low volumes, heroin kills pain, but smoking really is just fucking up your body.

[Magmar]

I went to karaoke at a gay bar the other night, and people were singing (quite poorly) Amy Winehouse songs. It made me happy as a clam, haha.

Butttttt dead Amy Winehouse makes Magmar a sad panda.