Saddam sentenced to hang for war crimes

[Mewtwo-D2]

I'm rather grossed out to see the videos on yahoo and what not, I can't stomach to watch them. Partying for somebody's death, what are we, Atilla the Hun? No wonder why the majority of the world doesn't like us, we're filthy barbarians.

What do you think the Middle East is doing right now? Many of them are celebrating. For filthy barbarians, how about the videos of people dancing in the streets and singing for joy after 9/11? Is it more barbaric to celebrate the death of a brutal, murderous dictator, or to celebrate the deaths of 3000 innocent people?
Do you think no one celebrated when Hitler died? Or do you think all the Jews who were furious that Mengele had died of natural causes are filthy barbarians too? And while we're on the subject of people dancing in the streets when murderous dictators died, the Italians, the French, the Germans, the English, the Russians, the Hungarians, the Polish, the Czechs, the Cambodians, the people of Laos, the Phillipines, the Turks, the Greeks, the Somalians, the Sudanese, the South Africans, the Chileans, the Mexicans... shall I continue? are all filthy barbarians too.

Mewtwo-D2: Funny, I would call you a reactionary nitwit <3. You think gulag doesn't mean anything to me? Two of my great-grandparents spent decades in one.

No, I don't think gulag means anything to you. One of my great-great-grandparents was murdered for being Irish. Does this mean I can speak with authority on hate crimes? If Gitmo, where they have three square meals a day, free Korans, non-radical Muslim clerics available at all times, exercise time, plumbing facilities and toilet paper, air conditioning, and much better living conditions than their glorious leader, is a gulag to you, then you have no concept of the word.

You don't think psychological attacks are torture? You don't think that bringing somebody to the edge of death by drowning repeatidly is torture (see waterboarding, something straight out of the Spanish Inquisition) ? Typical idiot, just because you lack a functional brain doesn't mean that attacking somebody's mind is not evil.

How is it that you are incapable of debate? For what they did in Abu Ghraib, no, I don't think it was torture. Depriving someone of sleep for short periods of time before questioning is not torture. Applying electrodes to someone's genitals until they confess is torture. But Saddam did that, so that's okay. The Americans deprive someone of sleep and it's 'ZOMG HITLER NAZI BUSH EVIL KKKONSPIRACY!!!!!11111' If waterboarding is torture, then let's start charging fraternities with crimes against humanity.

Second, I actually did cite it in a paper last year, I didn't have the money to actually buy a translation of Aeschylus' Agamemnon for my Odyssey paper, and so I just cited the Wikipedia article on Agamemnon, MLA format and all.

So, tell me. How was it that you couldn't afford a play that is in the public domain, and is available free on the internet?

Didn't anyone ever tell you that if you lie too much, your tongue will turn black and fall out?

[DarkTemplarZero]

To Rudy: Honestly, I can't be bothered to read what you say anymore. I can't say I read your previous post and I probably never will, it's just not worth it.

To respond to Roy: so if people are breaking the law in major ways that means the minor felons should get off? Good logic. I'd love to see you try to pull that defense off in court, "I only killed 3 people! There are people who killed 5, 10, hundreds, millions! What about them, huh? If Pinochet got off, why can't I? If I killed 4 people, then I could understand going to jail, but just for 3? Come on! We're talking dime store robberies here!" Just because something's a less heinous crime against humanity than something else doesn't change the fact that it's a crime against humanity.

To D2: Same as I said to Roy, celebrating one death is still Barbaric, and just because people did it in the past doesn't mean you should keep up the traditions. If everybody did that, we'd still be selling our children into slavery as advocated in the Bible, Exodus 21:7. And I don't know where the hell you get your opinions of torture from, maybe next time talk to an actual torture survivor before you make yourself look stupid. Read up on waterboarding, it's not exactly something you'd see at a frat house.

[Roy Karrde]

I really dont see the problem with the video being on Yahoo and what not. A few years ago Al Qaeda released the be heading video of a innocent man, and that was everywhere. People even played the audio on the radio.

As for the people partying, Dearborn Michigan has a large, large Iraqi Population, many of those escaped the wrath of that brutal dictator. Those were the ones that they were showing partying. The people that lived in Plano, lost a Sister, Mother, Father, and I believe 30 Cousins to Saddam Hussain. They never showed regular white Americans partying in the streets, just as I doubt there were any. The only parties were those of Iraqis who had lived under his wrath and have good reason to party. Just as there were parties happening in Iraq.

[Master Rudy]

You know what Zero? I'm tired of your attitude. When someone doesn't agree with you I see you fling insults left and right (muderous unwashed Huns ringing a bell?). When you make a comment that draws heat from everyone around you (such as your Bush comment)you quickly backpedal and say you were kidding. Plus your claims are absolutly fucking absurd. If this country was like the old Iraq or the Soviet Union this arguement would have ended (or perhaps never started)long ago because we would have never heard from your sorry ass ever again following some of the many comments you've made about Bush and other high level goverenment officials. So until you disappear off the face of the Earth at the hands of the oppressive American Commies then what you claim is bullshit. In other words STFU.

Also while we at it I'm calling you out right now as a liar. When things aren't going you way you'll lie to make a point. First off is your obssesion with Wiki. Using Wiki on a HS paper? Ok.....I'll admit that's a maybe. I remember how clueless some of the teachers in HS were. On a Harvard paper? No way in hell. Unless the professor skimmed the report or totally missed the Wiki reference while reading it then there is no way that would have flew. I've known people would have used Wiki before in school. At most they've gotten D's due to how unreliable that site can be. Here's the second point:

First thing I will say is that I have given you articles in the past that shows that no torture took place in Guitmo, YOU even admitted it.

I take Roy's word over yours any day of the week just because you backpedal and change your story so damn much. Why would you continue to claim torture in Cuba if you already admited to one person that it didn't happen? I know why. It's because you can't make a point without a lie. Finally my third point is this. Also before I make this point I'll go ahead and say I can't find the posts in question so it's highly likely they were among the posts lost in the board switch. In other words your free to deny this all you want since I admitted I can't find proof ^_~

Anyway unless I was going crazy I remember you saying as a boy that you lived in the good old USSR. You say you lived in fear? You saw people you know get taken away? Well guess what? I call you a liar for that as well. I know your going to think I'm a cold hearted bastard but you know what? I just don't give a fuck right now. I want to expose you for what you are: a person that plays on others emotions and tries to draw sympaty from those around them in order to make their point. And don't think I don't know what I'm talking about. I wasn't a bad kid overall but I had my moments growing up. I know how quickly people tend to forget about what you did wrong or drop their side of a fight if you make them feel sorry for you and that's exactly what you try to do.

Ok history time. As we all know the old Soviet Union started to fall apart in the late 1980's. By December 25th, 1991 what we knew as the USSR was officially disolved and started to become Russia and the other countries that were once the USSR. You say you were born on October 31st, 1988 if I'm not mistaken. For one I highly doubt people were still disappearing left and right if the USSR was working to end communist rule in their country. Second it's very rare for people to remember things from before their were 5 or 4. At most you would have been 3 years old when the USSR fell apart. I have trouble remembering shit from when I was 5 years old.

I'm done......in all honesty I don't think I should have wasted another second on you but enough is enough. I'm tired of your insults to people that don't agree with you. I'm tired of bullshit and lies designed to make your point. You want to debate everything I said? Go ahead......however I'm willing to bet you can't do it without resorting to insults or lies.

Oh and FYI I'm not a Viginian......I'm an American

[DarkTemplarZero]

Hahahah Rudy I'm officially entertained. Apparently idiots like you are good for something. And yeah, I was kidding, I wanted to make the point that they are both guilty of crimes against humanity. But one point, I'm not flinging insults because you disagree with me, I'm flinging insults because Mewtwo-D2's being a bitch and you're just obnoxious because you refuse to believe that anything that disagrees with you is reliable.

Second of all, I agreed with Roy that I knew of no completely conclusive evidence for torture at Guantanamo Bay, other than documents authorizing the use of "alternative interrogation methods", the Military Commissions Act, and the testimonies of people who were actually prisoners there. I dropped the point because there was no point in arguing any further, there were good points and sources for both sides, and so whatever. However, the point is irrelevant, my point was that Bush is guilty of crimes against humanity under international law, which is not a debatable point. The existance of secret prisons (admitted publicly by the President himself) and the fact that he authorized the imprisonment of people without the right to a trial (well documented, public knowledge) is a crime against humanity.

I won't argue Wikipedia with you anymore, but I'll admit my example isn't that valid, because who would bother vandalizing an article about simulated annealing? But whatever, I won't bother anymore. From the points you make, it's obvious that everything that doesn't agree with you is obviously not a reliable source. Hail Rudy!

Next, yes, I was 5 years old when I moved from the former USSR to the states. However, when did I say I lived in fear? I said two of my great-grandparents spent decades in the Gulag, which is quite true. I didn't see them taken away, true, but if you're raised being told first-hand accounts of people disappearing in the middle of the night it does stick with you. Now, I could tell you to STFU, but I prefer to think of myself as above that.

[Master Rudy]

Hahahah Rudy I'm officially entertained. Apparently idiots like you are good for something...........I'm not flinging insults because you disagree with me, I'm flinging insults because Mewtwo-D2's being a bitch and you're just obnoxious because you refuse to believe that anything that disagrees with you is reliable.

Good job proving that you can't make a valid point without insulting someone......bravo......

Now where did I outright say that anything that disagrees with me is unreliable? Just because I have my own opinion on things that doesn't mean I totally blow it off. Let's use 24 as an example. For the longest time I felt that the first season of the show took place in 2004 which at the time was the future. Things that supported it were the fact that 2004 was an election year in real life and David Palmer was running for the Democratic nomination therefore placing an unnamed Republican in the White House. Assuming that Bush is the unnamed Republican that places the show in 2004. However there has been plenty of evidence to prove that the show's timeline begins in 2002:

David Palmer is seen wearing a pin which didn't come into use until after 9/11/01.
This year places Operation Nightfall in 2000, when Slobodan Milosevic was still in power.
Findings at CTU places Day 1 in April. Day 1 7:00pm-8:00pm shows Jack's watch with a date of "23" on it. April 23rd, 2002 was a Tuesday.
According to Findings at CTU, Mark DeSalvo began working as a warden in 2002.
In Day 3, Kyle Singer's driver's license is visible. It gives his date of birth as being in 1987. His age is mentioned in another episode as being 19, placing Day 3 in 2006.
The racing game Countdown takes place in December of 2004, between seasons 2 and 3.
In Trojan Horse, the 24 novel, Operation Proteus was just getting started two years before the novel. Operation Proteus took place in 2000, placing Day 1 in at least 2002.

Other things not mentioned in this list are the fact that the report by the House Special Subcommittee's report and investigation into day one was dated August 26th, 2002. In addition the Tuesday mentioned is Super Tuesday and if there is one thing many writers like to do with their fictional PotUS it's make up election dates. West Wing also did it so I'm sure 24 and the West Wing won't be the last. And despite the fact that I feel 2004 fits better there's all the evidence straight from the show's creators so who am I to call them unreliable?

My point now is this: just because something or someone disagrees with me I don't instantly think that their opinion has no merit. You however have a history of refering to things that are known to be unreliable in the first place. Don't make an ass out of yourself by assuming everything Zero. Just because I don't agree with you, Wiki, the Daily Show and the Democratic Party that doesn't instantly mean I disagree with anything and everything that does not share an opinion with me.

Anyway none of this crap is important to the subject at hand. This was a discussion about Saddam. Your welcome to your opinion about if he should have been killed or not but remember this: the risk of Saddam alive far outweighed the possible risk of him dead. And I've a strong feeling that if he was given life instead and somehow managed to escape you'd be screaming bloody murder over how incompetant the prison guards must have been. Why let him rot in jail, potentially escape and start this shit all over again? Anyone that has lost a loved one due to violent acts knows that it's hard to rest until those responsible are also dead. Yes there may be violent acts over his death towards US troops but personally I think this is more of a real moral breaker for supporters of Saddam's regime. If you want to call hanging him barbaric go ahead but keep one thing in mind. Despite what you say he got a fair trial. There are terrorists out there that have captured independent contractors, beat them and then beheaded them in front of the world. The way you speak it's as if your comparing this to that. The true barbarians do shit like that.......if it was barbaric to give a man a fair trial then I suppose we should have discussed his actions at a jovial dinner party instead, told him it's all in the past, gave him a slap on the back and let him go home a free man.

Yes Zero I too possess the ablility of sarcastic remarks

[DarkTemplarZero]

And torture is backed up by countless other websites, including Wikipedia, CNN, etc. So the point is that both theories have their sources and evidence and are both possible, let's leave it at that, k?

And second of all, Irene Kahn, the extremely short Secretary-General of Amnesty International was the one who first made the Gulag quote. Let's take it in context, shall we? "Guantánamo has become the gulag of our times, entrenching the notion that people can be detained without any recourse to the law. If Guantánamo evokes images of Soviet repression, "ghost detainees" – or the incommunicado detention of unregistered detainees - bring back the practice of "disappearances" so popular with Latin American dictators in the past. According to U.S. official sources there could be over 100 ghost detainees held by the U.S"
As you can see, she never even mentions the mistreatment of prisoners, but simply the fact that people are imprisoned without the right to a trial. Bam. Insant Gulag.

"The offenders of International Law are not in the U.S. they live in the Gettos of Iraq and Iran."
So you deny the existance of US secret prisons and the fact that about 10 of the 700+ held at Guantanamo have actually been charged with a crime? Because those are offenses under International Law. And if we don't stick to International Law as one of the countries primarily responsible for it's existance, why should anybody else? What's to stop another Holocaust or another Rwandan Genocide or another Darfur? If the United States, the land of the free and the home of the brave, doesn't follow it's own laws, why does Iran need to comply with International Law?

Rudy, I love to see how you attack my sources when your favorite source is a fictional TV show. CNN, NYTimes, Wikipedia, The Daily Show, Al Jazeera (yes Anti-American, but still an established news source), etc. are all less reliable than fiction. Wow man. That is just remarkably stupid. I've heard of Bible inerrancy, but 24 inerrancy is something new. I really won't bother replying to your post because it is such a load of crap I honestly don't want to waste my time reading it. I know reality has a well-known liberal bias that's worse than the New York Times, but next time try to stick to reality please? I love you man, <3

Oh and a happy early New Year to all!

[Master Rudy]

Rudy, I love to see how you attack my sources when your favorite source is a fictional TV show. CNN, NYTimes, Wikipedia, The Daily Show, Al Jazeera (yes Anti-American, but still an established news source), etc. are all less reliable than fiction. Wow man. That is just remarkably stupid. I've heard of Bible inerrancy, but 24 inerrancy is something new. I really won't bother replying to your post because it is such a load of crap I honestly don't want to waste my time reading it.

And how in the blue hell did the fictional anti-terrorism missions that CTU undertakes become a source as to this whole Saddam thing? Where did I say the word of Jack Bauer and Tony Almedia was more reliable than say Jon Stewart or CNN? There was not a single point I used it as a "source" in this debate. I was mearly making a point which you totally 100% missed and that point was I don't disagree with everything that disagrees with me. I felt season 1 took place in 2004. The writers and evidence over the first and third seasons said otherwise. Seeing that they wrote the damn thing that means they can't be unreliable. Let's use Lord of the Rings instead. I could quote things from the film all day long but if I'm trying to have a debate about the actual book with the film as my only source material then I'm fighting a losing battle aren't I? Movie was great but in the end Tolken's words are the boss. The way you put it if I said I prefer the film to the book that would be like me saying Tolken's original story is unreliable. However I'm not saying that. I'm saying Tolken wrote it and while the book obviously doesn't match the movie in some places since it came first the book is the end all be all if your having a debate about LotR and is therefore NOT an unreliable source dispite the fact that things in the book disagree with things in the movie and I prefer the movie. I'll forgive you Zero. After all you yourself said you didn't bother to read my last post. How can I expect you to understand the point I was trying to make if you didn't even read it? No hard feelings.....things like that happen.

As for Roy well said. That reminds me of something I said in an earlier post. Yes war is ugly and yes there are times where your going to do things you don't like. However in war if you don't do them many more people could die in the long run. Who remembers World War II? Yeah those two nukes were terrible but think of the manpower required for an invasion for the Japanese mainland. In the long run it would have at least drawn that war out for another year or two and cost so many more Allied and Japanese lives over that period than the two bombs did. It's not an easy choice but it was one that needed to be made: let the war drag out and kill many more in the long run in a push towards Tokyo or nuke two cites and threaten Tokyo with a third in an attempt it end it now. The Saddam situation is the same thing. Kill him now and let it be over with or put him in prison and risk an armed group loyal to him busting him out of jail resulting in the deaths of Amercians in the process. Then following that how about Saddam goes underground and plans attacks or maybe even a possible take over of Baghdad? Can you imagine the field day reporters would have had if Saddam would have busted out of prison and then several months later planned a successful assassination attempt on the Iraqi president......yeah that wouldn't have been pretty would it?

[Roy Karrde]

Actually DTZ you said and I quote

so I don't doubt that Guantanamo may be overhyped

even in Road to Guantanamo most of the harrassment took place in Camp X-Ray, when they were moved to the new facility it kinda just became like "oh we're imprisoned for no reason"

When we discussed if there was torture at Guantanamo Bay, I gave you several sources from CNN and others in which it was stated that there was no torture happening at Guantanamo Bay. Infact we found out that just the opposite was happening, that the Guards were being tortured by Human Cocktails being thrown at them, with a mixture of Spit, Blood, Urine, and Sperm being thrown on the Guards who could not do anything in return.

As for crimes against International Law, about Secret Prisons, and Imprisonment with out the right of a trial. Has there been any major war in which International Law was followed strickly by both sides? Now if this was a non war time situation I would agree you that, those tactics would be against the law. The difference: this IS a war time situation, those captured are Prisoners of War, and to even have a trial for those captured during a war time situation would require for troops to be pulled from active duity to go to the trial, Commanders being interviewed and having to focus on sending in document after document instead of focus on winning. Having to pull key military resources out for a trial, is just bad tactics no matter how many human rights violations it may cost.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Alright, alright. I'll give you that one. Even if we don't really know what's going on in Guantanamo. However, the guards thing is ridiculous, there's even less evidence for that than there is for the torture thing.

And as for your point on international law, what's the point of a law if people ditch it at the first sign of trouble? It's like saying that my family is having a feud with your family, and so law does not apply anymore and I can take your cousin and stuff them in my refrigerator with impunity. International Law doesn't make exceptions during war: the Nuremberg Charter signed by the US which defines crimes against humanity and war crimes specifically defines crimes against humanity as inhumane acts committed "before or during the war" "whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated". So no matter how you put it, it is in violation of both US law (since the US doesn't believe in universal jurisdiction, the United States incorporated all relevant international law into national statutes) and International Law.

Finally, the Bush administration specifically doesn't call them Prisoners of War, because that would imply that they had rights under the Geneva Conventions.

[Roy Karrde]

The guard thing has been backed up by two websites, one being CNN. Give me a few hours and I can get it on Wikipedia too XP.

As for the point of international law, what is the point of it if only one side is playing by the law, and the other side frequently breaks it? Look at the Insurgents in Iraq, the Iranian Forces there, Al Qaeda doing Car Bombs in Iraq, it seems as if you are willing to give them a free pass becuase they didnt sign the law, you seem to want to harp on the Bush Administration so much, yet it isn't them that are cutting off people's heads, it isn't them that are setting car bombs in civilian market places. The offenders of International Law are not in the U.S. they live in the Gettos of Iraq and Iran.

Please, re read the interview at this link near the bottom of the page from a CNN transcript if you truely believe that the Bush Administration is denying these guys rights. http://archives.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/lol.02.html Please read it, it is far from the Gulag that Amnesty International wants to protray it as.

[Arnen]

So just because they're breaking the law means we can do it too? That makes perfect sense.

Oh, and Saddam's being hailed as a martyr by some holy man in the village he was born in, or so I saw on the news this afternoon. Because I'm sure killing countless innocent people and then being brought to justice is grounds for martyrdom.

[Roy Karrde]

So do you believe that Irene Khan is stupid enough to misspeak in saying that? She knew exactly what she was going to say and knew that everyone would lead with the first part. Guitmo is no where near a Gulag and you of all people should know that. And to say that Guitmo is a Gulag not only insults the United States, but also insults your own ansestors that you say were in a Gulag.

As for the International Laws, you are comparing what would be a Dime Store Robbery with Mass Murder. Wow Charged with out a crime, Wow not allowing people to work out in the morning, wow secret prisons. I wonder what your reaction would be if the US started really breaking International Laws instead of this Dime Store Robbery bull shit. Lets see what happens if US Troops started fire bombing districts that have increased Insurgent Activity, like what they are doing to US Troops with car bombs each day. Lets see what happens if US Troops started shooting anyone they believe is a terrorist or even looks like one, that sure would cut down on US Troop Deaths. Lets turn Iran into the Glass Capital of the world by nuking it over and over just like what they want to do with Isreal. Lets shut down freedom of the press like what Venezula is doing. Lets lock YOU up for speaking out against this country and throw away the key.

Now how scary is the stuff that I am mentioning? Neither You nor I want to see that happening, but those things are truely breaking International Law. So lets throw the Dime Store Robbery stuff out unless all you want to do is put a stick in America's eye no matter what the cost.

[Magmar]

So, Saddam was lynched, and there is a video. I won't link to it here, but if you really want to see it just IM me or look for it yourself.

[Vejodi]

I believe in the saying, 'two wrongs don't make a right'. But meh, it's another countries laws, so I respect their decision.

[Roy Karrde]

And Dark I reply that if you wish to treat each crime equally, you will never get anything done. I guess in your world you would want to focus on the criminal shop lifters that are stealing the Fruit Roll Ups from the store, and not worry about the Rioting and killings happening in the city right?

As for your comment to D2, when did you become the moral equivilent for everything? You don't know what those people have experienced under Saddam's rule. Yet you feel free to judge their actions when some one that has haunted their life for years has been put to justice. How do you get off doing that? These people have done nothing to you, yet you see fit to call their actions barbaric. You know what I think is barbaric? I think some one that sits at home, comfy and safe, with his family safe and secure, and can sit back and judge the actions of others when you do not know one iota of the hell they have gone through in their lives. That my friend is Barbaric.

[Magmar]

Sorry, DTZ, but no matter how much you bitch about how Saddam was so cruelly slaughtered *tear*, if you ever walked into Iraq and tried to tell some mother whose children were boiled alive that it was unjust to end Saddam's life, you're lucky if she doesn't kill you.

I know I don't cite my politics etc. when I argue because when I've got something to say, I'll say it--and I will say flat out that Amnesty is the biggest bunch of p***ies I have ever encountered in my life. I'm about as liberal as they come, and I would NEVER let Saddam live in a million, billion years. Nobody in the world wouldn't see justice in the execution of a mass murderer who committed countless crimes against humanity unless they were ON CRACK. Pass me some of that, because I don't think any drugs I've encountered would EVER be able to make me like Saddam or value his life.

He's dead, and he's where he belongs. I don't know if Hell is real or if he's being reincarnated as a leapfrog in high traffic, but he'd better be getting his ass handed to him by the powers that be because I don't think any amount of human torture could possibly add up to a billionth of the pain he has caused that nation.

You can call us ruthless, huns, any name you can think of, but you'll just respond, taking time to perfect your English to make yourself sound smarter than me and use larger words just to try to appear pompous. "Oh ho ho ho, you don't bother me! I am sagacious and you are so ruthless, you cannibal!" Blow me.

Try all you want, you're not bringing Saddam back, and you need to stop bitching about these itty bitty things and start looking at the big picture. Put some of those funds towards fighting AIDS or Cancer or fucking chronic mastoiditis, I've got too much experience with lethal diseases that I'd rather not talk about here, but I can say that I'm a bit more concerned for diseases that affect INNOCENT PEOPLE than I am for the rights of the guilty. There could be some six year old girl out there who's dying of cancer and the people who could find the cure can't afford the materials and such, yet your group is blowing money on distributing anti-punishment-of-the-genocide-leaders propaganda. Don't you have something better to do??

Would you seriously vouch against Hitler's execution as well? "No, don't kill Hitler! Don't let the Jews kill Hitler because he's a living being with rights and feelings!" Ah, bullshit. Go suck an egg. Saddam deserved what he's got.

And by the way, don't just ignore the things Rudy says. He's got a brain, too, you know, and he has rights and *tear tear tear*.

Ugh, I'm so aggravated.

[Roy Karrde]

Just to put some of the things in perspective with the Fraternities, here are some of the things that happen there from things that I have heard.

• You are taken out to some place in the middle of the night either outside of the town or outside of the state, stripped naked with out a single dime, and are supposed to get back home
  
• You are taken to a park, stripped, blindfolded, and hit in the back several times before having hot wax poured on you.
  
• You are locked in a car trunk with a few others and told to drink several containers of alcohal
  
• You are stripped naked and have a overweight man rub his private parts all over you
  
• You are beaten to the point of broken bones
  
• They get you drunk, line you up, you bend over and grab the privates of the man infront of you, and walk in a line around the school at night
  
• They heat up a Cattle Brand and brand your skin with heated iron so that it stays with you for life.
  
• The most dangerous one is they make you consume liquids, many times water, to the point that you nearly die. Some people have died during this version of initiation.

These are the ones that have been made public, others involve things like Electricution, More Public Humiliation, and other things. I also want to say that while in High School Football I saw several hazing attempts happening from a Birthday "You are held to the ground while a line men takes off his clothes and sits on your face" to while you are changing several people come up with their pads and swing them at you as hard as they can. So does this mean I was tortured? Where was Amnesty International when I was playing football?!

[mr_pikachu]

I considered making a topic in Entertainment to discuss the video of Saddam's hanging, which I haven't yet seen although I plan to watch it soon. But I figured I'd be a flame target for designating it as Entertainment (even though it's a video)... oh well.

Anyway, for those of you who have seen it, what were your thoughts? Was it what you expected? Were some things different than you anticipated? Any other comments?

[Heald]

To the idiots:

Joining a fraternity/football team is completely optional and thus so are any initiation ceremonies. Being locked in a detention centre run by foreign nationals with no legal aid and the automatic assumption that you are an evil towel-head terrorist scumbag is not.

[Roy Karrde]

Joining a Fraternity is optional agreed, but when I joined up for High School Football I did not forsee nor plan on being hazed. And that is what it was a hazing. I do not say that I was tortured in anyway, I was hazed.

And to a extent all the "Torture" reports and everything else that is coming out sounds just like hazing or even less than hazing. Waterboarding? How about being nearly drowned in Alcohal so that you die of Alcohal poisoning. Panties on the top of your head? I know alot of Football players that would want that instead of having Tittle sitting on their heads.

[Heald]

Having someone put their genitals on your face is sexual assault and you could report them to the police. You don't have to take part in the alcohol ceremonies - if you value a bit of status more than your own personal health and safety, again, that is your choice.

Prisoners in foreign detention centres don't have that luxury. They can't cry to the police or the principal. Of course they could fess up to the enemy, if they value comfort over the feeling of guilt, betrayal, cowardice and the loss of the dignity and self-respect. Comparing being physically and psychologically tormented by foreigners to the shenanigans of some idiot frat-boys really doesn't work.

[Leon-IH]

Listen the fuck up people.

How the fuck is Saddam's hanging going to benefit the people of Iraq? How is the obviously bullshit trial system going to do ANYTHING for the puppet governments credibility?

I don't give a fuck what he did, it had been done and nothing could undo it. All killing Saddam in this way did was make a Martyr of him and make a collective of people very very angry (like they wern't angry enough), prison for life would've been a better option.

This hanging did nothing but bad for the people of Iraq (revenge that causes more violence, fucking great benefit there), and as it's supposedly their justice system (bullshit), it should probably do what is in the best interests of the Iraqi people.

[Roy Karrde]

If you had been reading the topic Leon we already covered this.
A: It gives millions of people comfort that the Butcher of Baghdad has finally been put away.

B: The trial was bull shit becuase he was guilty, but there is still a system to be followed.

C: Let him Rot in Jail? Why not put him in Arkham Asylum over in Gotham City? They have less of a revolving door for jails than Iraq. Hell just a few weeks ago there was a prison break where one of Saddam's half brother's escaped.

Heald: It was Sexual Assault but then again I would have to prove it. The alcohol ceremonies happen in fraternities, and even if you do want to back out in the last minute, you are locked in the trunk of a car! With the only way to get out is to drink yourself to death. As for being in a Foriegn Detention Center. The only place that these Hazing events have happened are in Abu. There is mountains upon heaping mountains of evidence that nothing has happened at Guitmo. Even people that have been there claim that nothing has happened.

So the only place things have happened was in Abu Garabi, which was a prison, not a Military Detention Facility, but a Prison. And you know what I bet? I bet Hazing Techniques like the ones I mentioned above happen in US Prisons too. Such as "Don't drop the soap?" possibly? Where are all the people screaming about torture in US prisons?

[DarkTemplarZero]

First of all, great point by Leon-IH. Awesome bro.

Rudy: I did have respect for what you said, until you started rambling on about a random fictional TV show, and I have better things to do than debate with you about some random show which I have never watched.

Magmar: Spoken like a truly small-minded person. I'm sorry about your experiences, but fortunately a great deal of money is being poured into medical research, and many people see biology making as much progress in this century as physics made in the last. Sorry, but that has absolutely nothing to do with my "group", whatever that means. I won't argue morals with you, we both know that's pointless, but let me ask you a question. What has the execution of Saddam done? International outcry, martyrdom, demonstrations in Iraq, the new Secretary-General of the UN has proven to be both remarkably uninformed and backward in his beliefs on the death penalty, nothing in any way positive, awoken lots of ill will in Iraq, and further alienated Europe. Before you answer, first take your head out of your ass and take a look at the rest of the world.

Roy: Yes, I am the sole judge of truth and decency. Morality is what I say is right, and immorality is what I say is wrong, you've gotta understand this
But honestly, we're not talking about people robbing dime stores here, we're talking about crimes against humanity. If we'll become so cold that we say "oh, this is just a minor crime against humanity, there's others...", what's next? Pretty soon genocide's no longer a crime.

And what's so bad about getting a little Captain in ya? Honestly, I can't believe you're comparing Gitmo and Abu Ghraib to frat house parties. I can't say that I've ever been to one, there's nothing wrong with drinking a bit, and newsflash, you don't have to join a frat. Somehow I doubt I would have a problem if the US government were sending it's citizens to Syria to drink some Smirnoff.

[Master Rudy]

Rudy: I did have respect for what you said, until you started rambling on about a random fictional TV show, and I have better things to do than debate with you about some random show which I have never watched.

To DTZ:
Once again........I am NOT rambling or debating with you about a random TV show. Once again the whole fucking point is not 24 or LotR. The whole point was the fact that I don't instantly disagree with everything that does not share a point with me. I disagree with you because your trying to defend a twisted point of view by using Wiki, the Daily Show and fucking Al Jazeera. Hell I'm willing to bet you just saw orange text with my name on the last post and took about 5 seconds to post that reply to me considering you aren't even bothering to read them now. A middle schooler has the basic knowledge needed to follow those two posts I made provided they actually read them. Perhaps you'd benefit from following the advice you gave Magmar. Before you answer again take your head out of your ass and take a look at the rest of the world instead of trying to argue your point when you don't even know what the hell the debate is about. Oh and answer M2D2's question. It's just plain rude to leave someone hanging like that.

To Leon:
Need easy answers to those questions? No problem.........refer to posts #1-109 in this topic (minus DTZ's rambling)for answers as to why Saddam is six feet under as opposed to sitting in a 12X12 room with three square meals a day.

To everyone refering to prison torture:
For one there are people who were in Cuba saying that not a damn thing happened. As for the Abu Ghraib incidents yes those guards were out of line (not to mention that one woman looked like a dog). However that still ain't even close to what frats do and it's still lightyears away from Saddam and Chemical Ali. Does it excuse it? Hell no......however I'd take being lead around on a leash any day of the week over being burned alive with a cattle branding iron.

And on one final note I'll say something my dad said. As sick as they were at least Saddam's sons had the balls to go down fighting for their twisted beliefs. Dear old dad pussied out the moment that US troops poked their heads into the hole he had been hiding in. Men like Saddam are cowards. They know how to hurt people and instill fear but the moment they are at risk for even a fraction of that pain or fear they show their true colors. May he burn until the end of time for all the pain and suffering he caused the innocent people of this world.

[Magmar]

I won't argue morals with you, we both know that's pointless, but let me ask you a question. What has the execution of Saddam done? International outcry, martyrdom, demonstrations in Iraq, the new Secretary-General of the UN has proven to be both remarkably uninformed and backward in his beliefs on the death penalty, nothing in any way positive, awoken lots of ill will in Iraq, and further alienated Europe. Before you answer, first take your head out of your ass and take a look at the rest of the world.

Haha, I looooove how you answered your own question from yet another one-sided perspective. Ooh yes, I can be a bitch and an asshole when it comes to debates because I argue my points, 'cuz they're right and you can take them or leave them. At least in Magmarland, my points are right.

What is backward about the death penalty? I say lynch 'em.

Nobody cares what Saddam's supporters believe. From the neutral perspective outside of Iraq, Saddam killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people, children, women, men, the elderly, anyone who stood in his way. I didn't realize exterminating your own people was an act of heroism.

He deserves what he got. Quit trying to immortalize Saddam as a hero and remember him for the tyrant he was.

Boo-the fuck-hoo that he was lynched. I quadruple-triple-double-dog-dare you to walk into Iraq and publicly mourn Saddam. You'll be swinging right next to him before you even know it!

Saddam is nobody's hero. If he's your hero, then you're a sick freak and I feel bad for your parents. In fact, I'll send them flowers and hug them, because Lord knows they'll need it with the knowledge that there are people like you who think genocide is not a crime deserving the death penalty.

What would Saddam do in prison, anyway? Write a book? Try to "become good"? He CHOSE to do what he did, and he's paying for it in hell right now. If hell exists, anyway.

And finally, to answer your question. The execution of Saddam has given CLOSURE to the families, the mothers and fathers, the children, who lost those dear to them by the hands of that tyrant. They can sleep a little easier knowing Saddam won't be after them in the morning. The face and name of Saddam has wrought terror into far too many innocents.

How would you feel if you watched everyone in your family tormented and killed for his own cause, were tortured yourself and somehow escaped, and knew that Saddam was still out there doing the same to other innocent families? I bet you'd feel better now that Saddam's dead.

Then again, you'd have to ask an Iraqi citizen how they feel about Saddam. Our opinions are all merely objective and none of us are truly right.

I'm... pretty open minded, too. When it comes to terrorists, however, and people who hurt children, I FLIP out. I'd kill Saddam myself if I had the opportunity. He could be sitting there in the Easter Bunny outfit and beg me not to hurt him and I'd still kick him square in the jaw. I don't have sympathy for him, and why should I? Because he's a human?! That is not human.

There's a box of Kleenex right here if you need any, if Saddam's death is bringing you to tears. Woe is you.

Oh and Bush didn't kill Saddam... the Iraqis judged him! They hate him too.

[Leon-IH]

A: It gives millions of people comfort that the Butcher of Baghdad has finally been put away.

Cold comfort when more of those peoples families are dead because his death contributes to more civil war in Iraq.


B: The trial was bull shit becuase he was guilty, but there is still a system to be followed.

Had a look at the type of court they're running over there? I'm not disputing his guilt, I'm just pointing out that it's a kangaroo court.


C: Let him Rot in Jail? Why not put him in Arkham Asylum over in Gotham City? They have less of a revolving door for jails than Iraq. Hell just a few weeks ago there was a prison break where one of Saddam's half brother's escaped.

Put him in a jail that doesn't suck, problem solved.

[Roy Karrde]

Crimes against humanity, you have to be kidding me, you make it sound as if America is going over there, bombing small towns. Using Biological Weapons against small villages, and Raping the women. You know, basic Saddam stuff. These hazing tactics are using in Middle and High School Football, they are used in Jails by inmates and wardens, and even worse stuff is used in Frat Houses. Why not go against those people? People in Jails do not want to be there but they have had crimes against humanity used on them. What about those at Frat Houses? They do not know the Initiation technique till it happens? And those are kids, 18, 19 year olds are having this happened to them. Yet you seem not to care. As for your question, we already have the enemy practicing Genocide, but you would rather turn a blind eye to that, in favor of looking at Hazing? One side is killing innocent people, the other is embaracing guilty people. Which is worse?

Edit: Cold Comfort? You realize that the attacks are taking place in Baghdad and one or two extra cities. Everywhere else in Iraq, especially the areas where Saddam gassed people, they are living in peace now that he is gone.

Second his trial for the Kurds is still on going, betcha didn't know that did ya?

Third find me a jail in Iraq that doesn't suck? What are we going to do take him out of the country? That makes the Iraqi Government look like a farce. Keep him in heavy protection in Iraq? Till when? Till the troops leave? How long will that jail not suck under Iraqi Protection?

[Razola]

Let me get this straight:

Saddam dies and his followers get pissed and serious vaginal sand.

He gets prison for life and they just chill out somewhere.

The fuck? They're going to do something bad regardless of whether or not Saddam lived. That's such an idiot statement and I'm tired of hearing it.

Eventually, something is going to piss these people off. We'll, sooner or later, do something to agitate them. You think banning gay marriage would appease radical Christians? No, they'd start bitching about pre-marital relations on TV.

[Leon-IH]

The fuck? They're going to do something bad regardless of whether or not Saddam lived. That's such an idiot statement and I'm tired of hearing it.

You think it's just his original die hard followers who are pissed off now?

Everyone in the entire fucking country who gained even the smallest iota under his rule compared to now is pissed off, whatsmore, they got a hero, it's amazing what a martyr can do for your cause.

The war in Iraq is better propaganda for the terrorist and radical muslims bullshit campaign than than any bullshit Bin Laden and his people could dream up, and giving them more heroes like Saddam just makes it worse, thank you and shut the fuck up.

[Roy Karrde]

You think it's just his original die hard followers who are pissed off now?

Everyone in the entire fucking country who gained even the smallest iota under his rule compared to now is pissed off, whatsmore, they got a hero, it's amazing what a martyr can do for your cause.

The war in Iraq is better propaganda for the terrorist and radical muslims bullshit campaign than than any bullshit Bin Laden and his people could dream up, and giving them more heroes like Saddam just makes it worse, thank you and shut the fuck up.

For one man you are coming dangerously near to flaming, second you don't think those people were pissed? The ones that gained something small under Saddam. But those people are in the minority, they have always been in the minority.

[Razola]

You think it's just his original die hard followers who are pissed off now?

Everyone in the entire fucking country who gained even the smallest iota under his rule compared to now is pissed off, whatsmore, they got a hero, it's amazing what a martyr can do for your cause.

The war in Iraq is better propaganda for the terrorist and radical muslims bullshit campaign than than any bullshit Bin Laden and his people could dream up, and giving them more heroes like Saddam just makes it worse, thank you and shut the fuck up.

Yes, let's imprison their hero. That won't give them some righteous cause to take down the great evil that is America. I mean, the dead stay dead. You can free a prisoner. No, I don't think they'd pull it off, but it gives them motivation no matter what you do.

You have to remember that doing ANYTHING will give them a cause unless we do jack shit. You take out a terrorist cell and they all become heroes and more reason we need to die. You find a way to cut off major funding to terroism and we're boned. You capture a country's leader and the insurgents will be pissed no matter what happens. You think they're just going to do jack shit if Saddam was simply in a prison. That's idiotic.

[Master Rudy]

Well Raz is right. It's not like they were going to go quietly into the night and let things be if Saddam were alive. A martyr in their eyes? Perhaps.....however keep in mind some people followed Saddam simply because going against him was certain death. Back when this whole thing began many of his troops surrendered peacefully simply because the treatment they were getting as American captives was better than the treatment they were getting in the Iraqi National Guard. As for those that actually shared in his sick views they may portray him as a martyr but in reality they are now leaderless. I'm not saying this will happen with all of them but losing Saddam may have crushed the will to fight in some of these guys. As with any leader when one falls another rises up to take their place but Saddam had years and years of unchallenged rule to build his power. I don't think anyone that has the potential to rise up will last very long. As of now it's just a guessing game and no one can say for sure but there's my two cents ^_~

[RedStarWarrior]

What did I say about insults and flames, you little bitches?

This thread is about Saddam and his death. Please stay focused on that and keep your conversation civilized. This is your last warning.

PS - Fraternities and Frats are two different things. Do not confuse the concepts or you will piss me off.

[TKnHappyNess]

I don't get why the Iraqi government arrested those guys for the Saddam cameraphone video. It's crappy quality, and the guy using it is an obvious amateur. Besides, we got screwed out of the actual execution by the media, so this is the next best thing.

[mr_pikachu]

I guess it was because the execution was supposed to be something for Iraq and only for Iraq. By posting it for the world to see, the cameraphone guys took away the private nature of the event.

Not that I can blame them; I'm glad that it's available, especially for Iraqis who fled Saddam's tyranny but still wanted to see his demise. But I do see why it must have been irritating for the people of Iraq, as it breaks the execution's "sanctity," if you can call it that.

[DarkTemplarZero]

Errr Magmar I hope you know there have been quite a few public mournings for Saddam.

"From the neutral perspective outside of Iraq, Saddam killed thousands upon thousands of innocent people, children, women, men, the elderly, anyone who stood in his way."
True, and things have changed how? Thousands upon thousands of innocents are still dying in Iraq, you can even say that they've been liberated to smithereens. And while Saddam is no hero, don't forget that he was supported by the United States because he wasn't a fanatical Muslim before the Gulf War. Closure? Reawakening old pains is closure? Psh. Besides, I think the people in Iraq have a lot more to worry about than closure when the country's in a civil war. And second of all, stop portraying me as a Saddam supporter, you clearly don't understand a word I'm saying. I believe Saddam was a sick bastard and I hate him almost as much as I hate Putin, which is quite a bit. Still, killing a person is wrong regardless of the scenario, and enjoying somebody's death is just sick, which is why I pity your parents for giving birth to such a demonic little bastard.

[mr_pikachu]

And while Saddam is no hero, don't forget that he was supported by the United States because he wasn't a fanatical Muslim before the Gulf War.

I shall conveniently ignore the rest of your post so that I may easily make this point: Saddam wasn't supported by the U.S. during the Gulf War because he was a different person then. He was supported by the U.S. during the Gulf War because we were trying to pick the lesser of two evils; neither choice was anywhere near what you would call "good," but Saddam was deemed a little more likely to join forces with us.

Now I will run away as quickly as I can in order to avoid the inevitable flames to come. Adios!

[Heald]

I read in a British newspaper today that 8 children have died around the globe (the latest was in Morocco) in bizarre hanging reenactments following the coverage and subsequent footage broadcast around the globe of the hanging. I was indifferent about the hanging beforehand, but now I am vehemently against it. By allowing Saddam to hang, it has made children think it is okay to hang people and they have even made a game out of it, trivialising the controversy surrounding the death penalty and killing people in the process. No one can justify the hanging now. Not even Doom music.