A surprising return! *SPOILERS*

**Zak** · 9th January 2003, 05:35 PM

You know the Pokemon Hoso series? That miniseries that shows what happens at alternate times such as the Brock and Misty specials? Well, some of you may have heard of this one, some of you may have not. "Epic Battle at Oak's Lab!" features all of Ash's old Pokemon he deposited, and Tracey.

Thought that sounded obvious?

Well.... wait till you hear who else returns.....

If it isn't

our

old

friends

Butch

and

Cassidy!

I'm not sure what their plan is this time..... but I think they might have newer Pokemon!

~Zak

**pikasaiyan** · 9th January 2003, 05:56 PM

Nice!! thanks zak i was wondering what that episode was about. I guess its ash's pokemon and tracey to the rescue!

**RJdude** · 9th January 2003, 06:57 PM

Cool! Do you have any other info on this episode, Zak? I bet one of Ash's Pokemon (Or maybe one of tracey's) will evolve. I hope it's either Phanpy, Totodile, or Venonat.

**Azure Pathos-Sketchit** · 9th January 2003, 08:06 PM

eeeeeeeeeeeeEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!

An entire episode on the characters I really miss! Especially Tracey!!! Woohoo, I hope Marril or Venonat evolves, or even better, SCYTHER! Well, highly unlikely, but one can dream, can't they? Tracey would look so kickass with a Scizor. ^_^

Maybe that Houndour of Butch and Cassidy's has evolved? That would make for a real cool battle.

I hope you get more info on this episode soon. I'm real excited about it already!

**pokefreak04** · 9th January 2003, 08:08 PM

Thanks for answering my question Zak! If anyone should evolve, it should be Tracey's Scyther. Why? Scizor is just plain bad @$$!!! I betcha B&C are gonna try to capture, in their words, "all the rare and valueable Pokemon on the farm of the Famous Professor Oak!" For the boss of course.

**Chris 2.1** · 10th January 2003, 02:55 PM

wow! B&C! Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!

I think they're Kanto Pokemon may have gone (Houndour/Hitmontop and Primeape/raticate) and maybe they have something like a Yamirami? or maybe a thingy! You know...evolves from Gonyonyo?...

That sounds cool, but i bet Cyndaquil evolves. IMO, Scyther is both a Symbol of pride and Tracey's watching skills. He already has the bad@$$ image without evolving, unlike Charmander had. That's why they both fought a lot, when Charmander was a Charizard.

I think Cyndaquil will evolve because Ash said he wanted a Quilava. Maybe that means Ash will have Quilava on his team? Maybe even Croconaw, or even Heracross could make a return!

**Purasuru** · 10th January 2003, 03:56 PM

That's it? That's the news? *sigh* I was hoping we'd see Pidgeot, Primeape and Butterfree again.......oh well........

**BenRG** · 10th January 2003, 04:28 PM

Okay, I don't want to sound down, but I don't like the look of this episode.

Firstly, remember that Butch and Cassidy are the competent ones. They have beaten Ash before and have shown that they have no compunction about using deadly force to get what they want.

I think that they are going to steal all of Ash's old Pokémon.

Why? The producers want to quickly rule out any return of Ash's old Pokémon in Advance Generation. That way they can get down to the serious business of marketing the new games without distractions from fans who want to see the older Pokémon again (like the Charizard fan brigade). I hope that I'm wrong, but I have lost a lot of faith in the producers' commitment to the fans over the last couple of months.

Here is hoping that they are blasted off with no swag and bruised egos!

**AKA Pokemon Fan** · 10th January 2003, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by BenRG
Okay, I don't want to sound down, but I don't like the look of this episode.

Firstly, remember that Butch and Cassidy are the competent ones. They have beaten Ash before and have shown that they have no compunction about using deadly force to get what they want.

I think that they are going to steal all of Ash's old Pokémon. Why? The producers want to quickly rule out any return of Ash's old Pokémon in Advance Generation. That way they can get down to the serious business of marketing the new games without distractions from fans who want to see the older Pokémon again (like the Charizard fan brigade). I hope that I'm wrong, but I have lost a lot of faith in the producers' commitment to the fans over the last couple of months.

First of all they do care about the fan's favorites. If they didn't then they wouldn't have had Charizard return three times as well as make Squirtle and even Ash's Lapras make returns, or have episodes dedicated to the original Pokemon. The original Pokemon weren't forgotten in GS even though the new one's were given precedence, I doubt it will be any different with RS.

Secondly, while I agree they are competent Rockets I think you're overestimating their battling ability. They only defeated Ash in a battle ONE time and that was because of Dr. Namba's rage-driven power enhancers. Without them they were no match for Ash's Pokemon. Add to that that (1) Ash's Pokemon have gotten a lot stronger since then, and (2) Butch and Cassidy have never faced Ash's real powerhouses like Snorlax, Kingler and Heracross and I find it unlikely they'll succeed in capturing them. I mean Snorlax defeated Clair's Kingdra, and Kingler is almost a force of nature by now. Then there's Bulbasaur who's experience and power will far exceed anything they would expect. Ash's Heracross has become very mighty as well, unless the guide I read was wrong it actually broke through a Fire Blast using Megahorn. Even if Butch and Cassidy have mecha with them, which they most likely will, they'll still be hard pressed to handle Ash's and all the other trainer's Pokemon that live at Oak's.

Thirdly, the episode is called "Epic Battle at Oak's Lab" which hardly sounds like a defeat for Ash's Pokemon. Epic battles normally invovle the good guys winning after a difficult fight.

However I'm not going to put any faith in anyone evolving. I've been disappointed way too many times for that. However, given that Totodile and Cyndaquil among others no longer have to fulfill the role of "cute" Pokemon on the main character's teams, perhaps it is more likely they'll evolve.

**Kasumi Chan** · 10th January 2003, 06:42 PM

Butch and Cassidy stoling all of Ash's pokes?...I don't see that happening.
Besides, Ben: If your fears come true I doubt that Ash will stand there with his arms crossed while B&C are delivering his pokémon to Giovanni. He'll surely hunt them until he saves his pals.

@ Zak: thanks for the info! ^^ You're always bringing us fresh news. Arigatou Zak-kun.

**Rei_Zero** · 10th January 2003, 10:53 PM

Ben, this new series has made you awfully bitter and paranoid about what the writers will do. Now you are making conspiracies without even thinking. So the writers are making a fresh start. That doesn't mean they will make Ash think like an idiot and go,"Oh, its all right. I'm sure TR will take good care of them." The writers have proven countless times that letting the bad guys win a war is a very big no no. Therefore there is no reason to believe they will pull all of the starring pokemon to oblivian. Also, you are seriously underestimating the force of so much pokemon and the intellegence of the pokemon researchers. Let's see. 6-12 pokemon to a million strong, heavily trained pokemon at the ranch. Also, don't go to evil ray thingy because there is nothing near Pallet that we know of that can transmit supposed psychic waves. Besides, someone would definetly have a ghastly or any other ghost types there that won't be effected.

**BenRG** · 11th January 2003, 01:14 PM

Rei_Zero, I'm not bitter, I'm cynical. I don't have any confidence in the producers' willingness to care about their long-term fans anymore. It was nice seeing Charizard and Squirtle again, but notice that they left right afterwards. It was a sop to make us keep quiet.

Regarding Butch and Cassidy's odds: Firstly they can bring a lot of cannon-fodder grey-uniformed Dan'in along (maybe with TR-issued Pokémon). Secondly, there is only Sam, Tracey and (maybe) Delia there. There is no indication that there are "millions" of Pokémon stored at the ranch. There are a few thousand at most. And the vast majority of them don't have their Trainers around, minimising their usefulness in a fight.

I don't expect Butch and Cassidy to win, but given what has happened with Brock and Misty, I want to prepare myself emotionally for the worst to happen.

**Rei_Zero** · 11th January 2003, 01:19 PM

Who says that pokemon have to take orders from their trainers?? Also, we've seen pokemon reacting to help other pokemon. What makes you say they won't in a time of crisis and need??

**BenRG** · 11th January 2003, 01:24 PM

Originally posted by Rei_Zero
Who says that pokemon have to take orders from their trainers?? Also, we've seen pokemon reacting to help other pokemon. What makes you say they won't in a time of crisis and need??

Ever heard of a stampede? With a few flash-bang pyrotechnics, and without their Trainers there to reassure them, it is going to be difficult to stop those Pokémon from demolishing the building in their panic, let alone to get them to fight.

**Rei_Zero** · 11th January 2003, 01:50 PM

If I remember correctly a tauros stampede defeated TR. If they are stampeding and destroying buildings what stops them from stampeding right through TR and their pokemon/them?

**AKA Pokemon Fan** · 11th January 2003, 01:53 PM

I don't expect Butch and Cassidy to win, but given what has happened with Brock and Misty, I want to prepare myself emotionally for the worst to happen.

I don't understand. What happened to Brock? I mean he did come back and all. Or are you talking about how he left most of his Pokemon to take care of the gym, his younger brother and the rest of the family?

**pokefreak04** · 11th January 2003, 08:24 PM

It is a big ranch. Who says they have to battle right next to the lab? BTW, Ben, why do you have to be so damn negative about this episode? The Pokemon on the ranch are not going to be written off the show completely! Why would they do that? The only reason I see for them to do that is if they are stupid. They would get so many nasty letters their heads would spin!

Ash's Pokemon and the other Pokemon there on the ranch are pretty strong. It might be a long and hard battle, but the Pokemon on the ranch will come through! Remember, the episode is called Epic Battle at Oak's Ranch for a reason. They wouldn't call it that and then have Ash's Pokemon written off the show. <;o inhales> Ok, enough of that.

**Light_Togetic** · 13th January 2003, 10:16 AM

I don't think that they'll write them off, I think the whole purpose of this episode is to show us just what the Misty special showed us: that Ash's other friends/Pokemon have not been completely forgotten about, and that they'll still get a bit of airtime on these "specials". Besides, what kind of Professor would Oak be if he couldn't even defend the Pokemon he keeps?

**Pokemon Neo** · 13th January 2003, 10:55 AM

This might sound strange to some people,but I think it wouldn't be all that bad if Ash's pokemon get stolen.Why?Just because we need some sort of conflict in the Pokemon storyline other than just collectiing badges.I just think the badges should be more of a sub-plot.Ash traveling through Houen and trying to get his Pokemon back would make a good story-arc.

**BenRG** · 13th January 2003, 12:36 PM

Originally posted by pokefreak04
It is a big ranch. Who says they have to battle right next to the lab? BTW, Ben, why do you have to be so damn negative about this episode?

I don't have to be negative, I just choose to be.

Seriously, I have started suspecting the Producers' motives in these Hoso specials.

Originally posted by pokefreak04
The Pokemon on the ranch are not going to be written off the show completely! Why would they do that? The only reason I see for them to do that is if they are stupid. They would get so many nasty letters their heads would spin!

You could apply that argument to them writing Misty out of the main show. Or did you forget about that? Just doing that (and for such a weak reason) showed the utter contempt that the real fans of the animé are held in by the Powers That Be.

Rei_Zero, remember that for the stampede to have positive effects, they must be stampeding in the right direction. It would make a good moment of slapstick comedy, but they usually reserve those for Jessie and James. Butch and Cassidy only ever get beaten in a more pedestrian fashion.

Originally posted by Light_Togetic
I think the whole purpose of this episode is to show us just what the Misty special showed us: that Ash's other friends/Pokemon have not been completely forgotten about, and that they'll still get a bit of airtime on these "specials".

You and I have different views on the Misty special, obviously. To me, the Misty special had only one message: "There, she's stuck in Cerulean City as Gym Leader now. Get with the program, viewers. She has been written out and she is staying written out until we've milked the new games for every last possible filler episode that we can."

I don't want to be negative, as I have said before. I am just so traumatised by Misty being written out for such a stupid reason that I no longer have any confidence in the Producers' decisions.

**Light_Togetic** · 13th January 2003, 03:43 PM

Actually Ben, I do feel somewhat the same way as you do. I didn't like it when the writers took away Misty; she was my favorite character! But, being an optimist, I'm trying to stay positive, and hope that their only message from her special wasn't that we'll never see her again. (Although, that is a very real possibility that I just don't want to agree with...) But, if they take away Ash's pokemon, I think I might just lose that optimism. Imean, I guess it could make for a more interesting plot, but I don't think that the fan base can take that many major changes.

**pokefreak04** · 13th January 2003, 03:47 PM

Originally posted by BenRG
I am just so traumatised by Misty being written out for such a stupid reason that I no longer have any confidence in the Producers' decisions.

My guess is that they wanted to add a little twist to the storyline. I haven't seen Advance Generation yet, but I think Haruka will make a good addition to the series.

**angelspet** · 16th January 2003, 03:20 PM

i never liked misty for many reasons
1in the episode with the bike gang she said "if someone hadnt totally destroyed my bike we d be across this bridge but uf it werent for that she wouldnt have gotten new pokemon
2how she aposed nonwater pokemon i mean sure poison isnt the beautiful but so what
3SHE STOLE TOGEPI FROM ASH!!!!!!!if it werent for hertrying to take his egg togepi be his sure togepi isnt much but its better then misty getting it

**Light_Togetic** · 16th January 2003, 05:59 PM

Hey, OBVIOUSLY the whole "Misty being gone" thing is something of opinion. So, in my opinion, Misty wasn't the only one trying to steal Togepi's egg from Ash; there was also Brock and Meowth. Misty just happened to be the one to get it. (Which, okay, I'll admit, she did grab it outta Ash's hands when it hatched). And, it's not like she hates all non-water pokemon, in fact, she's commented many times on how she has liked other pokemon before (mostly cute ones of course). Water pokemon are just her favorite, and that's no different from any other gym leader out there. But, I will agree on the bike thing because that did get kind of annoying. However, I do think that some people blow it way out of proportion. I mean, it's not like she talked about how Ash "destroyed" her bike in every single episode-- it was just once in a while; I don't even remember her having mentioned it in Johto (so far). Anyway, I just had to defend Misty considering she is my fav. character.

**angelspet** · 17th January 2003, 02:41 PM

i respect that and maybe i was a bit proportionit about the bike thing

**BenRG** · 17th January 2003, 04:10 PM

Originally posted by Light_Togetic
But, I will agree on the bike thing because that did get kind of annoying. However, I do think that some people blow it way out of proportion. I mean, it's not like she talked about how Ash "destroyed" her bike in every single episode-- it was just once in a while; I don't even remember her having mentioned it in Johto (so far).

The last time Misty mentioned the bike for a long time was in the very late-Season 1 episode 'The Misty Mermaid'.

***SPOILER ALERT***

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The next time she even mentions the bike is when she gets it back from Nurse Joy in 'Farewell... And Setting Off' at the very end of Season 5.

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***SPOILER ENDS***

Seriously, I think that the bike thing was just an excuse. She didn't want to seem weak in Ash's eyes by just wanting to hang around with him because she was lonely. By the end of the Orange Islands mini-season, they were sufficiently comfortable in each other's company that she didn't need the pretense any more.

**pokefreak04** · 17th January 2003, 06:02 PM

My thoughts exactly! Also......
SPOILER!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

She even gets it back in Farewell... and Setting Off! But she gets mad and says, "it's not the same!" and storms off, where she meets those guys with TR, you know the rest

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
END SPOILER!!!

**Cyber Dragon** · 18th January 2003, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by Purasuru
That's it? That's the news? *sigh* I was hoping we'd see Pidgeot, Primeape and Butterfree again.......oh well........

Where are they???

I miss them so much. Especially Butterfree... and Pidgeot. Such classics. Perhaps Butterfree forever migrated to whever it migrated, and will neverevereverever see Ash again. And Pidgeot is probably still guarding the Pidgey forest place.

They are faithful to Ash. At least that makes me... sort of happy.

**Anti-R*cketship** · 18th January 2003, 10:17 AM

If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times...

Butterfree is dead. In the Japanese version Butterfree die after they mate.

**AKA Pokemon Fan** · 18th January 2003, 05:43 PM

Originally posted by Anti-R*cketship
If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times...

Butterfree is dead. In the Japanese version Butterfree die after they mate.

I've heard this before and would like to know if they actually say that or just indicate it in a way that requires interpretation?

Unless Pidgy migrate then Ash's Pidgeot is still hanging around the Viridian Forest near Ash's home. One can hope that some of the Pidgeoto's in the flock will evolve eventually so that they can defend themselves from that homicidal Fearow (maybe Ash hitting it with that rock drove it insane?) without Ash's Pidgeot.

Unless it ran away I say Primeape is still with Anthony learning more Fighting techniques.

Lapras could be anywhere in the sea it seems, since it later gets an appearence in a Johto episode. Lapras schools must wander a lot.

**Chris 2.1** · 19th January 2003, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by Anti-R*cketship
If I've said it once, I've said it a hundred times...

Butterfree is dead. In the Japanese version Butterfree die after they mate.

Yea? well in England, we didnt get told they die after they mate, so we have no reason to believe so. You can't have a go at us, have a go at the writers for dubbing it diferently. I dont really think it died, because i was TOLD (on the show, not by anybody else) that Butterfree left, and i was nott old he would die.

**Rei_Zero** · 19th January 2003, 11:54 AM

In the Japanese version Brock stated that Butterfree would die after mating. This is apparently what made Ash cry harder.

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