2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Heald]

Edit: It also helps to have a great villain to unite against, and Obama being possibly the most polarizing President of all time really helps that out.

1861 would like to disagree with you.

[Roy Karrde]

1861 would like to disagree with you.

Actually its kind of the Washington Post that is saying it.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...g.html?hpid=z2

[Heald]

I think we've entered a new age of hyperbole where people cannot have opinions that don't form one end of an extreme and expect to be listened to. This is especially important for the dead-tree press, who need to tap into that underlying rage people never thought they had and exacerbate it in order to sell papers.

Not that I'm defending Obama, who has mightily pissed off a lot of the right, but this is more a symptom of society as a whole than a person. Look at the data, 7 out of 10 so-called polarised years are from the last 7 years. People are, in general, pissed off about a lot of things, so it's no surprise that, when whipped up by the mob mentality of the tabloid press, results like this appear.

But to put it into perspective, at least people aren't shooting other people to see whether it's lawful to keep black people as pets. It's probably more likely that people are being told to love or hate Obama by their source of news.

[kurai]

a blog post citing empirical evidence in which obama is not the most polarizing president claims that obama is the most polarizing president. journalism

Today will be a pretty strong indicator leading into Nevada on the 4th (also Maine's drawn-out caucus) then Colorado/Minnesota on the 7th. Florida is a winner-take-all closed primary for 50 delegates. 178 delegates in total will be decided (some will be unbound) by the 11th of February. Recent polling indicates a Romney lead in Florida of between 5 and 20 percent.

[Blademaster]

venemous

*venomous

[Dark Sage]

For once I agree with Blade. People who say that "Obama is the worst President of all time" don't know their history. Or flunked it completely.

The latest poll among scholars that lists all the Presidents by their competancy and popularity makes Obama number 14 among Presidents (a tie with Lyndon B. Johnson), which is rather good, actually. Of course, Obama has only been included in two of these polls so far. (The other poll, taken in 2010, listed him as 15th.) He's in the second quartile among Presidents, which means he's among the second-best. (There are four quartiles. Folks like Geaorge Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Jefferson are in the first.)

The worst ten Presidents are usually said to be Warren G. Harding, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Millard Fillmore, Ulysses Grant, John Tyler, Zachary Taylor and Richard Nixon. Harrison is sometimes ommitted, seeing as he died 32 days after taking office.

And I have studied all their careers. I defy you to say that they did better than Obama is doing.

So please, stop saying that he's the worst President ever, and look at the facts.

Edit: A lot of people ask me, "Why do you support Obama? What good has he done for this country?"

Well, let's see... His accomplishments haven't accounted to much, except...

1. Fair pay for women in the workplace

2. Stimulus that prevented a second Great Depression

3. Saved the U.S. auto industry

4. Biggest health care reform measure in U.S. history

5. Credit card reform

6. Financial industry reform

7. Student loan reform

8. Investments in clean energy

9. End of DADT

10. End of Iraq War

11. End of Osama bin Laden

12. End of Muammar Gaddafi

13. Improved services to veterans

14. 10 straight quarters of economic growth

15. $25 billion BP oil spill settlement without years of litigation

16. DJIA back up to pre-meltdown levels

17. Two terrific Supreme Court appointments

18. 123 additional federal judges appointed who are not right wing ideologues

19. Ended restrictions on stem cell research

20. He’s kept us safe (isn’t that what they used to say about his predecessor?)

This list, incidentally, is taken from the same Washington Post article that Roy linked to.

[Roy Karrde]

For once I agree with Blade. People who say that "Obama is the worst President of all time" don't know their history. Or flunked it completely.

The latest poll among scholars that lists all the Presidents by their competancy and popularity makes Obama number 14 among Presidents (a tie with Lyndon B. Johnson), which is rather good, actually. Of course, Obama has only been included in two of these polls so far. (The other poll, taken in 2010, listed him as 15th.) He's in the second quartile among Presidents, which means he's among the second-best. (There are four quartiles. Folks like Geaorge Washington, Abraham Lincoln, and Thomas Jefferson are in the first.)

The worst ten Presidents are usually said to be Warren G. Harding, James Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Franklin Pierce, William Henry Harrison, Millard Fillmore, Ulysses Grant, John Tyler, Zachary Taylor and Richard Nixon. Harrison is sometimes ommitted, seeing as he died 32 days after taking office.

People said the exact same thing about Bush, it is just a clue at how polarized our country has become.

1. Fair pay for women in the workplace

Already on the books, making it a redundant law.

2. Stimulus that prevented a second Great Depression

Ended up being a colossal failure and a waste of money on a grand scale.

4. Biggest health care reform measure in U.S. history

Probably will end up being unconstitutional.

5. Credit card reform

Caused Banks like Bank of America to switch to different fees to hurt consumers.

6. Financial industry reform

Did not address the real problems of our financial crisis in Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

8. Investments in clean energy

Like the Stimulus ended up being a massive failure, and has caused millions if not billions of dollars lost.

9. End of DADT

Would have been ended by the courts.

10. End of Iraq War

Did so on George W Bush's timeline.

11. End of Osama bin Laden

No brainer.

12. End of Muammar Gaddafi

Did so in a unconstitutional fashion

14. 10 straight quarters of economic growth

Of incredibly weak economic growth.

17. Two terrific Supreme Court appointments

18. 123 additional federal judges appointed who are not right wing ideologues

Both opinions and not fact.

19. Ended restrictions on stem cell research

By destroying a compromise between the Right and Left, which will make a Right Wing President even easier to restrict it in ways far harder than the compromise.

20. He’s kept us safe (isn’t that what they used to say about his predecessor?)

By luck alone we have not had two terror attacks, one on a airplane, and one in Time Square.

[Dark Sage]

Those are the same arguement are hear from every other member of the GOP on those issues. I learn to ignore them.

Oh, and by the way... In the same polls of Presidents, G.W. Bush averaged 34th (he was in six polls total), putting him in the fourth quartile.

If you want to see how all Presidents stack up in these polls, here they are on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori..._United_States

[Heald]

I love how some American is claiming Obama can take credit for finishing Gaddafi despite it being a largely British led and backed effort.

[Roy Karrde]

Those are the same arguement are hear from every other member of the GOP on those issues. I learn to ignore them.

Maybe because they are the same poor arguments Liberals use to defend Obama?

Oh, and by the way... In the same polls of Presidents, G.W. Bush averaged 34th (he was in six polls total), putting him in the fourth quartile.

If you want to see how all Presidents stack up in these polls, here they are on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histori..._United_States

Sure but I wouldn't put too much credence in polls of those professors.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...ings/?page=all

I love how some American is claiming Obama can take credit for finishing Gaddafi despite it being a largely British led and backed effort.

And you guys did a great job, I just wish we could get the world to acknowledge the same kind of trouble in Syria.

[Heald]

Problem with Syria is Russia. We can't act unless they do, since they're the ones supplying them with the weapons that would make any invasion of Syria a much bloodier affair than Libya.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, look. You can say, like all the GOP did, that the stimulus was a "colossal failure". But that arguement falls flat, because we are NOT in the middle of a second Great Depression. The stimulus prevented it. If not for the stimulus, we'd be much worse off than we are now.

It was about as pleasant as a root canal, but it worked.

And your other excuses fall just as flat IMOHO.

And by the way, your link = the opinions of one political science expert.

My link = the studies and results of several.

Need I say more?

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, look. You can say, like all the GOP did, that the stimulus was a "colossal failure". But that arguement falls flat, because we are NOT in the middle of a second Great Depression. The stimulus prevented it. If not for the stimulus, we'd be much worse off than we are now.

It was about as pleasant as a root canal, but it worked.

Last time I checked the Stimulus wasn't designed to do that, it was designed to get us up and into a recovery, it did not. Infact it prolonged the recession by stringing it out. What would have been as "pleasent as a root canal" would have been to do nothing, allow the market to correct itself, get the bad debt and poorly managed companies out of the system, and begin to recover from there. But we didn't, and now we are a AA+ country with a pathetic recovery going on.

And your other excuses fall just as flat IMOHO.

Alright lets see this, where are your excuses for Fast and Furious? Solyndra? You want to tout the Green Energy program you need to defend Solyndra.

And by the way, your link = the opinions of one political science expert.

My link = the studies and results of several.

Need I say more?

"According to a University of Miami study" First sentence in the article. The studies rank the OPINIONS of the History Professors that produce those numbers. Need I say more?

[Dark Sage]

I love how you Obama-haters keep bringing up Fast and Furious. As if he actually was behind that.

You can say all these things to try to discredit the President, but they aren't going to work. Not while the GOP keeps doing things to spit on the lower class.

In fact Roy... You think that you're a Republican, but unless you are one of the 1%, you're nothing more than a dupe. Only they are the true Republicans. Anyone else who votes for them is someone that they are misleading, who they will double-cross by passing tax breaks for the rich and pulling sleazy tricks like the pipeline thing.

They forced Obama to say no by pushing him into a decision before he could work on it. Why? So they could make it look like he broke his promise to create jobs and provide energy. It was a malicious trap that they led him into.

[Roy Karrde]

I love how you Obama-haters keep bringing up Fast and Furious. As if he actually was behind that.

Seems fair you brought up Gaddafi, as well as a whole host of things Obama was not behind.

You can say all these things to try to discredit the President, but they aren't going to work. Not while the GOP keeps doing things to spit on the lower class.

Last time I checked a Presidency is won by the middle class.

In fact Roy... You think that you're a Republican, but unless you are one of the 1%, you're nothing more than a dupe. Only they are the true Republicans. Anyone else who votes for them is someone that they are misleading, who they will double-cross by passing tax breaks for the rich and pulling sleazy tricks like the pipeline thing.

Cute but lets keep this from getting personal.

They forced Obama to say no by pushing him into a decision before he could work on it. Why? So they could make it look like he broke his promise to create jobs and provide energy. It was a malicious trap that they led him into.

Who did this? Those that wrote the Stimulus?

[Dark Sage]

Okay, Roy, let's make a deal...

When G.W. Bush is held accountable for torturing prisoners of war, I'll hold Obama accountable for Fast and Furious.

Sound fair?

[Roy Karrde]

Okay, Roy, let's make a deal...

When G.W. Bush is held accountable for torturing prisoners of war, I'll hold Obama accountable for Fast and Furious.

Sound fair?

No, because while one was legal and completely in consent with Congress, the other was hidden and has lead to the deaths of American Citizens.

I notice you have still side stepped Solyndra by the way.

[kurai]

FL. results of Romney 46, Gingrich 32, Santorum 13, Paul 7

So! Today the Romney campaign has begun the move towards general election mode:



If Romney's momentum keeps up through the week (as listed above), this seems like a good move (given the opening of the opposition campaign with the SOTU). With further wins, the narrative will be set: Gingrich as only still in the race due to private funding (essentially no chance of winning with all momentum lost), Santorum as perhaps running for VP, and of course, Paul remains on course for third-party candidacy.

[Heald]

Ugh, Santorum as VP? No thank you, I'd rather have Paul. Seriously.

[kurai]

Here is something else fun:

Mitt Romney has no shame. He shows one face to the Hispanic community and another completely different one to everyone else.

On the one hand, Romney is a multimillionaire who pays an unfairly low tax rate. But on the other hand, he accuses the hard working immigrants who come to this country of being opportunistic, declaring (at a town hall meeting) that they're just here looking for handouts.

(Romney soundbite)

"A lot of people just come here that have no skill, no education, and are looking for a free deal."

Romney says he cares about our children, but time and time again he promises to veto the DREAM Act that would open educational opportunity for young Hispanics.

His Spanish-language ads say Romney "believes in us," but his deeds speak for themselves.

Let's not be fooled. He might have two faces, but we know all too well who the true Mitt Romney is.

Priorities USA Action paid for and is responsible for the content of this ad. Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.

Yes, an Obama SuperPAC is attacking Mitt Romney en español.

[Roy Karrde]

I am REALLY getting sick of the left pandering to the hispanic community by trying to link ILLEGAL immigrants, with LEGAL immigrants.

As for the VP choice, I really think he will go with Rubio, it helps him with the hispanic community. and it sews up Florida.

[kurai]

The problem is that Paul and Romney are fundamentally at odds. If Paul is truly the principled candidate he portrays himself as, he can't act as a subordinate to someone whose policies he opposes almost entirely. And the pro-gold standard/anti-reserve banking stuff which is so important to Paul is not going to be favored by Romney's super-capitalist-tier backers (I guess. It closes off existing markets in fiat currency manipulation and that so-delicious discount window "borrowing").

At best, Paul could roll out populist appeal while Romney collects the high dollar funding. But this would be a very confusing and contradictory message. On the other hand, Santorum provides religion as a populist route, and doesn't have to disagree with Romney on anything that will disrupt funding viability. It wouldn't be a bad strategy.

edit: Another thing to keep in mind is that the primaries aren't really over. At some point, Gingrich has to be forced to go away. But say Santorum continues to pull in 10-15% over the next week of caucuses. Santorum dropping out to endorse Romney pretty much ends it (they could always wait until after Super Tuesday for this, though, as most of those results will have proportionally allocated delegates).

[Roy Karrde]

Curious Kurai what would you think of say Bobby Jindal, Paul Ryan, or Marco Rubio as a VP choice?

[Dark Sage]

Legal??

Ever hear of a little thing called the Geneva Convention?

[Roy Karrde]

Legal??

Ever hear of a little thing called the Geneva Convention?

Going by U.S. law at the time, it was deemed legal by the office of legal council and by Congress when they were informed. All lawyers made certain to make sure it did not actually step over the Geneva Convention or any other U.S. law due to the wiggle room allowed in them.

[kurai]

There are probably too many swing factors to talk about the viability of relatively unknown and untested people. There isn't enough polling to predict national or regional effects. But Marco Rubio is a good choice if he is truly able to flip Florida (that swap alone brings you really close, given 2008 electoral college) - but right now "Romney" might be able to do that as it is. An endorsement might be enough. Will direct tea party appeal (if Rubio is the best choice for this) be more important than PAC funding and existing primary campaign structures and mobilization? Wider campaign effects are difficult to project.

Bobby Jindal sort of dropped off the face of the planet after 2008 (nationally). Assuming a guaranteed LA, this outcome alone isn't worth that much in the electoral vote, so you are at best looking to appeal towards a hold on the gulf coast - not really a great outcome. Paul Ryan is a pretty good choice for economic policy compatibility and recent popular appearances, but as a house Rep, he has weak regional appeal (can anyone flip Wisconsin, which went 56-42 for Obama?). Also, as a young Rep, he might be wanting to build experience before aiming higher later in his career (compared to the other young senator/governor starting points).

But I think it is more important to end the divisive primary as soon as possible than to wait in order to assess which young VP could provide regional outcomes. Everyone can see the detrimental effects that Gingrich attacking Romney for another few months would have on his chances in the general election.

[Dark Sage]

Oh, and about Solyandra...

Yeah, they were big contributors to Obama's campaign...

AND a lot of Republican election campaigns. Did you know that?

And In response to your last post.... Bullshit. They got away with it on a technicality.

[Roy Karrde]

Thank you for your insightful review kurai.

Oh, and about Solyandra...

Yeah, they were big contributors to Obama's campaign...

AND a lot of Republican election campaigns. Did you know that?

Yeah that doesn't make up for the connection with George Kaiser, or the fact that Solyndra officials visited the White House several times. Or the fact the White House emailed Solyndra and tried to get them to delay firings until after the election. Or the fact that a Republican Administration decided Solyndra wasn't worth the investment but a Democratic one decided to go ahead of it. Or the fact that while they knew the Solyndra ship was sinking the White House still wanted to push forward a new loan.

And In response to your last post.... Bullshit. They got away with it on a technicality.

Welcome to the law

[Dark Sage]

I'm going to make a prediction if I may...

No matter who wins the White House this fall, we're going to have more scandals like what happened with Solyandra. In fact, the chance will be even more likely if Romney wins.

Why? Because of that idiotic Supreme Court ruling that allows corporations to make unlimited donations to campaigns.

You know the one. The one that claims corporations are "people" (which makes as much sense as elves existing), the one that you Republicans just love because it helps your candidates so much.

The corporations are going to donate millions to try to get their man elected, and at least one who donated to the winner is bound to be corrupt. I guarantee it.

[Roy Karrde]

Edit: Is this the next scandal? Obama would be beyond a idiot to keep Eric Holder now. ( And really he should have been fired at the start of Fast and Furious )

A U.S. Justice Department source has told The Daily Caller that at least two DOJ prosecutors accepted cash bribes from allegedly corrupt finance executives who were indicted under court seal within the past 13 months, but never arrested or prosecuted.

The sitting governor of the U.S. Virgin Islands, his attorney general and an unspecified number of Virgin Islands legislators also accepted bribes, the source said, adding that U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder is aware prosecutors and elected officials were bribed and otherwise compromised, but has not held anyone accountable.

The bribed officials, an attorney with knowledge of the investigation told TheDC, remain on the taxpayers’ payroll at the Justice Department without any accountability. The DOJ source said Holder does not want to admit public officials accepted bribes while under his leadership.

That source said that until the summer of 2011, the two compromised prosecutors were part of a team of more than 25 federal prosecutors pursuing a financial crime ring, and at least five other prosecutors tasked to the case were also compromised by the criminal suspects they were investigating, without being bribed.

TheDC is withholding the name of the source, a knowledgeable government official who served on the Justice Department’s arrest team and was involved in the investigation, in order to prevent career retaliation from political figures in the Obama administration.

A former high-level elected official vouches for the government source’s veracity. “[The source] was trustworthy … and you could tell [the source] information or [the source] could hear information and [the source] would keep things close to [the source’s] chest,” that former official told TheDC. “You could trust [the source] with your life.”

The identities of the prosecutors who accepted bribes and others who were compromised have not yet been made public, and TheDC has not yet independently confirmed their identities. The prosecutors themselves are now cooperating with Justice Department investigators. (RELATED: Full coverage of the Justice Department)

Eric Holder, the source said, personally approved the makeup of the investigation and arrest teams.

“The team which was put in place, of course, in tracking all the information that we had — Holder had to sign off on the teams. He signed off on them a year and a half ago,” the source said during an interview. “He wasn’t fully in control of it, but of course the knowledge and approval of it came from him.”

“There are internal documents, of course. He was briefed. He got a full scope of what transpired, and he got a full scope of what is going on with this case in particular. There is nothing going on in this case that Holder doesn’t know about right now.”

DOJ leadership has been fretting internally, the source said, about how to handle the story when the news breaks because it represents a new level of corruption in the Obama administration. The Holder Justice Department is concerned about the appearance that it lacks the competence to enforce the laws in which Obama has shown political interest, including those related to corruption and other financial crimes.

http://dailycaller.com/2012/02/01/br...#ixzz1lC6rGQ4y

This really should be the last straw of a pathetic legacy of a pathetic man.

[Dark Sage]

Wonder how many of you had the opportunity to hear what Mitt Romney had to say after his big victory in Florida. I didn't write it down, but I think I can fairly paraphrase. He said that, as president, he would not focus on the poor. While being poor is a bad thing, he felt that they can be taken care of by the "safety net." He would rather concentrate on the needs of the middle class.

For those who did hear it, please let me know if my description is unfair. I would add that he said nothing about helping the poor to overcome poverty and aspire to the middle class.

What bothers me is the hypocricy of it all. If I recall correctly, many on the right, most members of Romney's Republican Party, think of themselves as the party of Christian values. Romney, as you know, is a devout Mormon himself. I was always taught that charity and compassion for the poor are cornerstone values in the Christian faiths. Even Rick Perry implied as much in talking about immigration reform. Even Newt Gingrich, of all people, spoke on the subject. Does satisfaction with the "safety net" for the poor qualify as genuine charity? I don't think Obama would think so.

[Roy Karrde]

Wonder how many of you had the opportunity to hear what Mitt Romney had to say after his big victory in Florida. I didn't write it down, but I think I can fairly paraphrase. He said that, as president, he would not focus on the poor. While being poor is a bad thing, he felt that they can be taken care of by the "safety net." He would rather concentrate on the needs of the middle class.

For those who did hear it, please let me know if my description is unfair. I would add that he said nothing about helping the poor to overcome poverty and aspire to the middle class.

What bothers me is the hypocricy of it all. If I recall correctly, many on the right, most members of Romney's Republican Party, think of themselves as the party of Christian values. Romney, as you know, is a devout Mormon himself. I was always taught that charity and compassion for the poor are cornerstone values in the Christian faiths. Even Rick Perry implied as much in talking about immigration reform. Even Newt Gingrich, of all people, spoke on the subject. Does satisfaction with the "safety net" for the poor qualify as genuine charity? I don't think Obama would think so.

Well seeing how Romney has donated far more to charity than Obama or Biden combined, that is a pretty poor comparison as for what he said, paraphrasing he said.

My focus will not be on the poor they have a safety net, and if there are holes in the safety net I will fix them. My focus will not be on the rich, they are doing fine. My focus will be on the Middle Class, as they are the ones who have suffered the most under this Presidency.

Was it a gaff? Yes? Was it also the truth? Yes. The Middle Class has suffered under Obama, with the loss of jobs.

[Dark Sage]

The DJIA has just closed at its highest point since the crisis started. It is now more than five-thousand points above the mark where it was when Obama took office.

Today's impressive gain was due to a better-than-expected unemployement report; unemployment is now the lowest its been since February 2009.

Now... try to tell me that the economy has gotten worse during Obama's Presidency. Go on, explain to me how it's gotten worse. I'd love a good laugh.

[Roy Karrde]

The DJIA has just closed at its highest point since the crisis started. It is now more than five-thousand points above the mark where it was when Obama took office.

Today's impressive gain was due to a better-than-expected unemployement report; unemployment is now the lowest its been since February 2009.

Now... try to tell me that the economy has gotten worse during Obama's Presidency. Go on, explain to me how it's gotten worse. I'd love a good laugh.

Today's "better than expected unemployment" numbers brought to you by 1.2 million people dropping out of the workforce!

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/record...-rate-tumbles-

The Labor Force participation rate is now at the lowest point since April of 1983.

So hey, if we kick even more people out of the economy, we may finally get to the point at unemployment of when Obama took office!

[Dark Sage]

I knew you'd use that as an excuse.

So, we factor in the people who aren't even trying. Never mind the fact that the report also said that 243,000 jobs were created and that more companies were hiring.

[Roy Karrde]

I knew you'd use that as an excuse.

So, we factor in the people who aren't even trying. Never mind the fact that the report also said that 243,000 jobs were created and that more companies were hiring.

It is not a excuse it is a fact, 243,000 is just barely enough to keep up with population growth, and not even close to offsetting the vast amount of jobs lost. In reality it is close to pathetic in terms of job growth. The fact is, that the only reason the unemployment number dropped is because the number of people who are looking for jobs shrunk, not because of finding jobs, but because they gave up. That is NOT a good sign of economic growth. Don't forget this figure.

People working in Jan. 2009 – 142,099,000
People working in Jan. 2012 – 141,637,000

Can you honestly tell me that is good for the economy?

[Dark Sage]

Roy, do you honestly believe that I didn't think you would try to refute what I said?

The DJIA has recovered, and the unemployment rate is down. Nothing you say is going to change that.

If more people have become lazy and given up, it's nobody's fault but their's. Those are the people who befouled this city's parks in the stupid Occupy Wall Street movement a few months ago, something that I think only worstened the situation.

You're never going to agree with me, and if Obama could spin straw into gold, you'd likely find fault with that. You'd also likely vote for Richard Nixon if he were alive and running for President. You, like many other people I see these days, are blindly loyal to the GOP, and that's just sad.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, do you honestly believe that I didn't think you would try to refute what I said?

The DJIA has recovered, and the unemployment rate is down. Nothing you say is going to change that.

The DJIA recovering has little to do with the recovery of the country, and the unemployment rate was changed because people gave up looking for a job. If you are going to tout those accomplishments with out acknowledging what led to the unemployment change then you are setting yourself up for embarrassment.

If more people have become lazy and given up, it's nobody's fault but their's. Those are the people who befouled this city's parks in the stupid Occupy Wall Street movement a few months ago, something that I think only worstened the situation.

1.2 million people in one month were not part of the Occupy Movement, and as noted the number of people who remain in the workforce has been declining since the recession started. You had 243,000 jobs created in one month, that means taking out population increase you had 93,000 jobs spread out over the entire country. If we are only taking in 93,000 jobs a month, not only is it going to be impossible for the VAST majority of people looking for work to find jobs ( Thus the reason for the drop ) but it will take decades to recover from this recession.

You're never going to agree with me, and if Obama could spin straw into gold, you'd likely find fault with that. You'd also likely vote for Richard Nixon if he were alive and running for President. You, like many other people I see these days, are blindly loyal to the GOP, and that's just sad.

So you result to personal insults instead of actually debating facts. Notice I have not seen one argument from you in order to counter the massive workforce loss. Saying "I know you would say that" is not a argument, it is giving up. If you cannot counter facts, I would not go around saying "Go on, explain to me how it's gotten worse. I'd love a good laugh. "

[Dark Sage]

Enough...

If there's one thing I know about you, Roy, it's that you will never let anyone else have the last word.

So have it already. I'm not going to argue with you all night.

[kurai]

Welcome to Nevada.

Behold! 28 delegates are at hand!

Proportional allocation based on caucus support. On the ballot:

Bachmann, Michele M.
Cain, Herman
Gingrich, Newton Leroy "Newt"
Huntsman, Jon M., Jr.
Johnson, Gary Earl
Paul, Ronald E. "Ron"
Perry, James Richard "Rick"
Romney, Willard "Mitt"
Santorum, Richard J. "Rick"

Yes, such a diverse and unpredictable selection! Perhaps recent polling will give us an idea of what to expect?

PPP Feb. 1-2, 2012 Mitt Romney 50% Newt Gingrich 25% Ron Paul 15% Rick Santorum 8%
UON Feb. 1, 2012 Mitt Romney 45% Newt Gingrich 25% Rick Santorum 11% Ron Paul 9%

Oh, I see.