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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by kurai View Post
    the FEC does not need to see it that way: they do not have the ability to assess or enforce the truth of material facts in a given filing - only with regard to campaign finance violations

    as stated, the issue is one of perjury, which would be enforceable through the DOJ (but certainly will not, and should not, be performed during an election)

    you are arguing that "Romney had no actual involvement with Bain except for legal duties" does not contradict having "not been involved in the operations of any Bain Capital entity in any way": such concealment of his legal duties is an obvious mistruth
    Unless Romney is going to argue that by mentioning Operations he was referring to the Day to Day Operations or to the Decision Making Operations, seeing how Operations is such a open term, and seeing how the statement was obviously crafted by campaign lawyers, either one is a open out for him.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurai View Post
    even though no indictment will occur, and thus no trial will demonstrate these consequences in fact, this situation plays into the narrative that: if romney is unwilling to disclose simple legal necessities, what else is he hiding?
    No see what it plays into is desperation, the public doesn't care if signing a legal document counts as being part of the operation or not. By not being able to tie him to the outsourcing in 2001 and instead having to resort to calling him a felon. It makes the DNC and the Obama Campaign look desperate, that they have to dig into radical name calling. That is a level you do not want to reach in a political campaign especially when you are not running on ideas this time around.

    Mind you Obama can go after Romney in ask what he is hiding, but by suggesting he is a felon, it completely and utterly destroys any credibility of the argument and causes the public to focus on that one radical statement. Furthermore it causes sympathy for Romney and makes Obama's campaign look out of control and radical.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 10:28 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Hey, Roy! I just heard some news that made me laugh out loud.

    Remember that ad I mentioned that Romney had, where he mocked Mr. Obama's singing talents while flaunting his own.

    YouTube has taken it down. Seems that whoever created the ad was committing a copyright violation!

    Lol. At least with Mr. Obama's negative ads, he's not infringing on protected material...

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Hey, Roy! I just heard some news that made me laugh out loud.

    Remember that ad I mentioned that Romney had, where he mocked Mr. Obama's singing talents while flaunting his own.

    YouTube has taken it down. Seems that whoever created the ad was committing a copyright violation!

    Lol. At least with Mr. Obama's negative ads, he's not infringing on protected material...
    Yeah taken down by BGM the publisher of Obama's books.

    But you know what? By taking it down it becomes forbidden, and causes people to go searching for it to find out what was so wrong in it. BGM just gave Romney alot of free publicity on a simple little ad!

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    Yeah taken down by BGM the publisher of Obama's books.

    But you know what? By taking it down it becomes forbidden, and causes people to go searching for it to find out what was so wrong in it. BGM just gave Romney alot of free publicity on a simple little ad!
    No Roy, BGM filed a complaint, claiming that copyrighted material was used, and in accordance to their policy on copyrighted material YouTube is the one who took it down.

    BGM was well within their rights to do so.

    Searching for it will do nothing, because it has been removed from YouTube. Links to the ad will lead to a blank screen.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    No Roy, BGM filed a complaint, claiming that copyrighted material was used, and in accordance to their policy on copyrighted material YouTube is the one who took it down.

    BGM was well within their rights to do so.

    Searching for it will do nothing, because it has been removed from YouTube. Links to the ad will lead to a blank screen.
    Yes because obviously no one else downloaded it and can reput it on Youtube, nor could it appear on any other video sharing sites correct?

    Found it: http://electad.com/video/mitt-romney...class-layoffs/
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 10:41 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    Yes because obviously no one else downloaded it and can reput it on Youtube, nor could it appear on any other video sharing sites correct?
    If anyone else puts it on YouTube, they'll take those down too.

    If you can find it, be my guest.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    If anyone else puts it on YouTube, they'll take those down too.

    If you can find it, be my guest.
    Found it on Youtube too.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYfBtnFf1Ls

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Karrde View Post
    Unless Romney is going to argue that by mentioning Operations he was referring to the Day to Day Operations or to the Decision Making Operations, seeing how Operations is such a open term, and seeing how the statement was obviously crafted by campaign lawyers, either one is a open out for him.

    No see what it plays into is desperation, the public doesn't care if signing a legal document counts as being part of the operation or not. By not being able to tie him to the outsourcing in 2001 and instead having to resort to calling him a felon. It makes the DNC and the Obama Campaign look desperate, that they have to dig into radical name calling. That is a level you do not want to reach in a political campaign especially when you are not running on ideas this time around.

    Mind you Obama can go after Romney in ask what he is hiding, but by suggesting he is a felon, it completely and utterly destroys any credibility of the argument and causes the public to focus on that one radical statement. Furthermore it causes sympathy for Romney and makes Obama's campaign look out of control and radical.
    unfortunately, romney's filing includes the term 'in any way'. it is readily apparent that his legal obligations were one particular way. arguing otherwise is not an "easy out", it is legalistic chicanery. this would be unworthy of the truthfulness required of a leader; it does not play well. thus, romney's evasiveness in federal filings is hardly a source for sympathy.

    but perjury is a felony - i don't know why you are calling this a radical statement. it is absolutely worthwhile to examine through public discourse whether or not a felony has occured, as i am sure you would agree it must not be performed through the justice system against a political opponent. the same would be true if any candidate has attested to misleading documents.

    as the argument for perjury can be made (as we have seen), people should know about it. it additionally has the benefit of advancing the obama campaign's overall objective of destabilizing the positive perception of romney's business experience. one has to buy into the now-present narrative that a candidate's secrets ought to remain secret in order to view this approach as a negative for obama, but this is an unjust concept.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by kurai View Post
    unfortunately, romney's filing includes the term 'in any way'. it is readily apparent that his legal obligations were one particular way. arguing otherwise is not an "easy out", it is legalistic chicanery. this would be unworthy of the truthfulness required of a leader; it does not play well. thus, romney's evasiveness in federal filings is hardly a source for sympathy.
    For the Obama Campaign to attack in that way they are going to need to explain the difference to the public, while also trying to televise the legal proceedings, as you note that is not going to happen, and the Romney Campaign has mountains of evidence to provide that he did not contribute to the decision making in any way, the idea that the Obama Campaign could win that fight is slim to none.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurai View Post
    but perjury is a felony - i don't know why you are calling this a radical statement. it is absolutely worthwhile to examine through public discourse whether or not a felony has occured, as i am sure you would agree it must not be performed through the justice system against a political opponent. the same would be true if any candidate has attested to misleading documents.
    Okay maybe you do not get it, but unless the candidate has been convicted of a crime, you do not suggest that he is a felon. It makes your campaign look radical, as it suggests that you are trying to win by having your candidate go to jail, or you are trying to win through name calling.

    It would be the same if McCain in 2008 went the full birther route and said Obama needed to provide his birth certificate. I am sure you would agree that having a Presidential Candidate certify that he was constitutionally able to serve would be something worthwhile to examine through public discourse. But in reality it makes the candidate look radical and willing to tear down his opponent with insane accusations. It does not take a political scientist to know that does not play well with the public.

    And mind you since the Washington Post and Fact Check has already called the SEC accusations false, a line of attack the Obama Administration is pursuing, he is already on a losing battle.

    Quote Originally Posted by kurai View Post
    as the argument for perjury can be made (as we have seen), people should know about it. it additionally has the benefit of advancing the obama campaign's overall objective of destabilizing the positive perception of romney's business experience. one has to buy into the now-present narrative that a candidate's secrets ought to remain secret in order to view this approach as a negative for obama, but this is an unjust concept.
    You can do that with out calling your opponent a criminal, by going that route you look un-Presidential, especially when you have your campaign do it. In reality by having Obama's campaign act this way, and Obama be unwilling to deny it, it feeds into the narrative that Obama has no control over his Campaign, and that feeds into the perception that Obama just is not Presidential. Furthermore I would say it HEIGHTENS the Positive Perception of Romney and his Business Experience as it makes the public believe that the only way that Obama can attack his Business Experience is not through a fair debate, but through childish name calling. Obama needs to win over independents, and while calling Romney a felon may play well with the far left, it does not play well with the independents who are looking for some one who actually acts Presidential and can help the economy.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Okay, Roy, I was having a little fun, but now I'm angry.

    You are so blindly loyal to the GOP, you refuse to admit that Romney's campaign did anything wrong, or that BGM was within its rights to make this complaint.

    I could use my computer to make a picture of Charlie Brown and Snoopy and use it to advertise my web comic. But I won't do that, for two reasons.

    The first reason is, if the estate of Charles Schulz found out, they'd send me a cease and desist letter at the very least, or sue the pants off me at worst.

    The second reason is, I have respect for the work of Mr. Schulz, and would never copy his work! Anyone who uses copyrighted material without permission is breaking the law, and you cannot say in clear conscience that Romney is in the right here!

    Edit: And btw... Your link doesn't lead to the ad in question. It leads to a different one.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 17th July 2012 at 11:07 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Okay, Roy, I was having a little fun, but now I'm angry.

    You are so blindly loyal to the GOP, you refuse to admit that Romney's campaign did anything wrong, or that BGM was within its rights to make this complaint.

    I could use my computer to make a picture of Charlie Brown and Snoopy and use it to advertise my web comic. But I won't do that, for two reasons.

    The first reason is, if the estate of Charles Schulz found out, they'd send me a cease and desist letter at the very least, or sue the pants off me at worst.

    The second reason is, I have respect for the work of Mr. Schulz, and would never copy his work! Anyone who uses copyrighted material without permission is breaking the law, and you cannot say in clear conscience that Romney is in the right here!
    "The Romney ad seems like as clear-cut a case of fair use as can be imagined. Obama's singing is a core part of the ad's message, and copyright law explicitly mentions commentary and criticism as justifications for fair use. And it's hard to imagine the ad harming the market for "Let's Stay Together.""

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...bama-crooning/

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Edit: And btw... Your link doesn't lead to the ad in question. It leads to a different one.
    The links leads to the Ad known as "Political Payoffs And Middle Class Layoffs" with a clip of Obama singing in it, that is the Ad that was taken down by BMG.
    Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 11:26 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Roy, I looked over Hibbs' "Bread and Peace" model, and it is interesting (Hibbs is certainly an expert in mathematics) but it has one serious flaw.

    Hibbs only takes Obama into account. His prediction does not include Romney in any way, shape, or form. It does not factor in anything that Romney has done, or any of his promises. (Or as I would say, the lack thereof.)

    If the election was simply a choice between "Obama" and "Not Obama", maybe Hibbs would have something. But if he truly believes that Democrats, as bad off as they are, think that they'd rather have Romney as President, he is dead wrong.

    And before you tell me that they'll stay home, please don't. I hear that all the time from GOTPers, only for responses to pour in by the dozens from Democrats saying that they'll prove such people wrong. Like I said, I go to places where I talk to real people.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Roy, I looked over Hibbs' "Bread and Peace" model, and it is interesting (Hibbs is certainly an expert in mathematics) but it has one serious flaw.

    Hibbs only takes Obama into account. His prediction does not include Romney in any way, shape, or form. It does not factor in anything that Romney has done, or any of his promises. (Or as I would say, the lack thereof.)

    If the election was simply a choice between "Obama" and "Not Obama", maybe Hibbs would have something. But if he truly believes that Democrats, as bad off as they are, think that they'd rather have Romney as President, he is dead wrong.

    And before you tell me that they'll stay home, please don't. I hear that all the time from GOTPers, only for responses to pour in by the dozens from Democrats saying that they'll prove such people wrong. Like I said, I go to places where I talk to real people.
    Well you can hear that from "Dozens" of Democrats, but facts do not lie, and the facts right now are that Democratic enthusiasm is down to 38%, in the past two Presidential elections that enthusiasm was up in the 60s.

    http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/...-falls-sharply

    Enthusiasm drives turn out, and with out it, people honestly do stay home.

    Also if you may not have noticed this election may just be a referendum on Obama, which means in the end it is the Obama vs the Not Obama.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    The poll you quoted says that there's a drop in Democrats that are "more enthusiastic than usual". It doesn't say anything about a rise in Democrats who are less enthusiastic.

    And you're doing it again. Relying on statistics and the media.

    Let me tell you something, Roy. Statistics don't lie, but liars do use statistics. It's easy to make a poll go the way you want.

    Let me give you an example. One infamous poll during the 1932 campaign predicted that Hoover would win re-election - by a landslide. No-one believed it, of course, and when F.D.R won hands-down, the magazine that took the poll insisted that it had done a thorough and honest poll.

    Actually, they hadn't. The poll had been conducted by telephone, using car registration numbers to choose the participants. In 1932, the height of the Great Depression, nearly everyone who owned a car and a phone was rich, white, and a Republican.

    Starting to see what I mean about how statistics don't lie, but liars do use statistics?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    The poll you quoted says that there's a drop in Democrats that are "more enthusiastic than usual". It doesn't say anything about a rise in Democrats who are less enthusiastic.

    And you're doing it again. Relying on statistics and the media.

    Let me tell you something, Roy. Statistics don't lie, but liars do use statistics. It's easy to make a poll go the way you want.

    Let me give you an example. One infamous poll during the 1932 campaign predicted that Hoover would win re-election - by a landslide. No-one believed it, of course, and when F.D.R won hands-down, the magazine that took the poll insisted that it had done a thorough and honest poll.

    Actually, they hadn't. The poll had been conducted by telephone, using car registration numbers to choose the participants. In 1932, the height of the Great Depression, nearly everyone who owned a car and a phone was rich, white, and a Republican.

    Starting to see what I mean about how statistics don't lie, but liars do use statistics?
    Remember we have had a talk about how polls can be turned and used with specific demographics, but your example is a failed one here. The poll goes with just democrats, and then just Republicans, instead of combining them together as your 'infamous poll' does.

    By the way I don't know if you are being serious or joking, but a rise in Democrats being "Less Enthusiastic than usual" means that they are less enthusiastic to go to the polls for Obama.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    No Roy, I'm not joking. I'm just amazed at how you still try to convince me with a bunch of statistics after I've already told you that I don't walk that route.

    Honestly, do YOU ever actually talk to people?

    Edit: Another thing Roy... I know a lot of folks who were around when Nixon won re-election by a landslide. Some of them still don't know how he won. They say things like, "I certianly don't know anyone who voted for him".

    Well, I can think of many reasons why he won, but the point is... People like YOU are like those people, who simply can't see how the incumbent President could have a chance when he actually has a very GOOD chance.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 2nd August 2012 at 02:57 PM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    No Roy, I'm not joking. I'm just amazed at how you still try to convince me with a bunch of statistics after I've already told you that I don't walk that route.

    Honestly, do YOU ever actually talk to people?
    Yes I do talk to people, and if you cannot handle statistics or information why the hell are you even here? Polls play a major part of any political debate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Edit: Another thing Roy... I know a lot of folks who were around when Nixon won re-election by a landslide. Some of them still don't know how he won. They say things like, "I certianly don't know anyone who voted for him".

    Well, I can think of many reasons why he won, but the point is... People like YOU are like those people, who simply can't see how the incumbent President could have a chance when he actually has a very GOOD chance.
    Actually I would say you have a good chance of being one of those people, as looking at polls and information before hand would have probably told them Nixon was going to win ( Although I do not have that information right off the hand, so I am only guessing ).

    Those who are unable to take it in more than likely lived in a cocoon talking to like minded people and basing their opinion like that. Sounds familiar?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Romney has responded to Reid's comments in a radio interview:

    "Well, it's time for Harry to put up or shut up. Harry's going to have to describe who it is he spoke with because of course, that's totally and completely wrong. It's untrue, dishonest, and inaccurate. It's wrong. So I'm looking forward to have Harry reveal his sources and we'll probably find out it's the White House."
    Unfortuately, when given the choice between "put up or shut up", Reid decided he clearly was not going to shut up. This was his response:

    "There is a controversy because the Republican presidential nominee, Governor Mitt Romney, refuses to release his tax returns. As I said before, I was told by an extremely credible source that Romney has not paid taxes for ten years. People who make as much money as Mitt Romney have many tricks at their disposal to avoid paying taxes. We already know that Romney has exploited many of these loopholes, stashing his money in secret, overseas accounts in places like Switzerland and the Cayman Islands.

    Last weekend, Governor Romney promised that he would check his tax returns and let the American people know whether he ever paid a rate lower than 13.9 percent. One day later, his campaign raced to say he had no intention of putting out any further information.

    "When it comes to answering the legitimate questions the American people have about whether he avoided paying his fair share in taxes or why he opened a Swiss bank account, Romney has shut up. But as a presidential candidate, it’s his obligation to put up, and release several years’ worth of tax returns just like nominees of both parties have done for decades.

    "It’s clear Romney is hiding something, and the American people deserve to know what it is. Whatever Romney’s hiding probably speaks volumes about how he would approach issues that directly impact middle-class families, like tax reform and the economy. When you are running for president, you should be an open book."

    Now, Romney has the ability to end this at any time, if these allegations are indeed untrue. All he has to do is release his tax returns (as even several prominent members of the GOP want him to do) and Reid would look like a fool, and he'd likely improve dramatically in the polls. But for some reason he either can't or won't. Is it because he's simply too stubborn? Or is it because he truly does have something to hide?

    The ball is your court, Mr. Romney. I am not like the Birthers, and I will accept your tax returns as legitimate if I see them in black and white.

    Edit: Btw, I don't want to hear that Romney "doesn't have to". I know he's released the required forms. But since when is doing the minimum required considered acceptable?

    Mr. Obama released ten years of his tax returns while running for President, and so did McCain. So did G.W. Bush, Clinton, G.H.W. Bush, Reagan, Dole, Kerry... Basically, everyone who ran for President in modern times.

    Romney is the odd man out. He, for some reason, will not.
    Last edited by Dark Sage; 3rd August 2012 at 08:22 AM.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Now, Romney has the ability to end this at any time, if these allegations are indeed untrue. All he has to do is release his tax returns (as even several prominent members of the GOP want him to do) and Reid would look like a fool, and he'd likely improve dramatically in the polls. But for some reason he either can't or won't. Is it because he's simply too stubborn? Or is it because he truly does have something to hide?

    The ball is your court, Mr. Romney. I am not like the Birthers, and I will accept your tax returns as legitimate if I see them in black and white.
    Actually you are JUST like those birthers, as Romney has released two years of his tax returns, just like Obama released his birth certificate, now you want the "Long Form" of the tax returns. So yes, you are just as pathetic as the birthers.

    Furthermore is Reid honestly saying that a CEO, Head of the Olympic Committee, Governor, and Presidential Candidate got by with out paying any taxes, is Reid HONESTLY saying that.

    By the way since the standard of proof now is "I heard", I heard that Harry Reid molested three children, lets look into that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    Edit: Btw, I don't want to hear that Romney "doesn't have to". I know he's released the required forms. But since when is doing the minimum required considered acceptable?

    Mr. Obama released ten years of his tax returns while running for President, and so did McCain. So did G.W. Bush, Clinton, G.H.W. Bush, Reagan, Dole, Kerry... Basically, everyone who ran for President in modern times.

    Romney is the odd man out. He, for some reason, will not.
    Umm dude, McCain released two years of tax returns, and Reagan released one year. And John Kerry's wife, the holder of the fortune, released just a summery.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    It still doesn't change the fact that Romney could make Reid look like a blooming idiot in one swift stroke. And even the GOP are pressuring him to do it.

    So why doesn't he?

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    It still doesn't change the fact that Romney could make Reid look like a blooming idiot in one swift stroke. And even the GOP are pressuring him to do it.

    So why doesn't he?
    Why doesn't Obama release his long form birth certificate? Why did he wait three years to put it out? He could have made the birthers look like a idiot at any time right?

    Dude you are reciting the same pathetic arguments, made by a pathetic bunch of people. You honestly are lowering yourself into their stupidity, I would laugh if it wasn't so sad.

    Edit: And as other people have pointed out, Reid has now given Romney the highground.

    "Now Romney can paint his decision to keep them private as a principled stand against unscrupulous opponents. Reid has handed the high ground to Romney in this fight with his scurrilous lies. Reid has all but ruined Obama’s strategy of making Romney look secretive and weird."

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    I notice you didn't jump on the monthly jobs report, which said that hiring during July was the best it has been since February.

    Unemployment did rise by 0.1%... However... Just as the GOP is fond of saying that a decrease in unemployment likely means that people have simply stopped looking for work, this may mean that more people are job-hunting again.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Sage View Post
    I notice you didn't jump on the monthly jobs report, which said that hiring during July was the best it has been since February.

    Unemployment did rise by 0.1%... However... Just as the GOP is fond of saying that a decrease in unemployment likely means that people have simply stopped looking for work, this may mean that more people are job-hunting again.
    Actually I did not get to it as I went to the forums first before jumping to the news, I saw your argument and decided to jump on that. As for the number, sure 163,000 is a good number, despite the fact it just slightly outpaces population growth. But deep down the numbers are bad, the U-6 number jumped nearly a full point, the .1% rise grew from the 348,000 that left the workforce which is not good for anyone.

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    Default Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election

    I hate to double-post, but there's something else that just came up that kinda disgusts me.

    The GOTPers are up in arms, criticising the President that he's taking the weekend off by playing golf... Despite the fact that it's his birthday.

    So he isn't even allowed to take his birthday off now? Never mind the fact that Romney and his family are also taking the weekend off, at their $8 million private estate.

    The Republican National Committee even did their best to mock him with a bunch of highly inappropriate gag birthday cards. Look at this:

    http://baracksbirthdaycards.com/

    I hope it rains on the birthday of whoever thought this up.

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