2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

I'd like to tell Roy that I stand by what I said about PBS,

Is that why you backed away and have not yet responded since the point about the Red Cross was torpedoed?

and I am, in fact, adding this to prove my point

Except that is as incorrect as saying that with out Government funding Sesame Street would fail. Romney was throwing out PBS as one example of programs that did not need the money because the moderator was a member of PBS. To act like it is the only thing Romney would cut is patently false.

I gotta agree with Brian.

Biden did something that no-one has yet done while speaking to Ryan. Stand up to him and call him out for the liar he is. Biden proved tonight that he will not take the crap that Ryan tries to give everyone.

But does that work well? Biden was acting like a smirking ass hole, Biden may have held his own on Ryan, but his demeanor was ugly and could very well come off as rude and a cranky old man debating a polite young man.

[mr_pikachu]

But does that work well? Biden was acting like a smirking ass hole, Biden may have held his own on Ryan, but his demeanor was ugly and could very well come off as rude and a cranky old man debating a polite young man.

I actually think it does, for two reasons. First, contrary to what we might like to believe, negative campaigns in general work. We keep seeing ads that bash the other candidate, in greater proportions year after year, because attacks on the opponent tend to be more effective than glowing commendations for oneself. It's a lot easier to win when you're on offense, scoring points against the opponent, rather than backing into a defensive corner.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, Ryan spent a substantial portion of the debate focusing on foreign policy. Specifically, he preached strength. Yet Biden overpowered him. It looks bad to argue that you're going to take a stronger stance in the international community, then allow your opponent to steamroll you. It makes it look like your claim of strength is invalid.

[Roy Karrde]

I actually think it does, for two reasons. First, contrary to what we might like to believe, negative campaigns in general work. We keep seeing ads that bash the other candidate, in greater proportions year after year, because attacks on the opponent tend to be more effective than glowing commendations for oneself. It's a lot easier to win when you're on offense, scoring points against the opponent, rather than backing into a defensive corner.

But usually in those attack ads they tend to avoid the face of the candidate that is putting them out and focus on their opponent. You don't have a split screen with one side being the ad, the other having Obama look like a smug bastard. Infact one could say those kind of camera pictures, of a candidate looking rude or smug, is something the opponents use.

Let me put up three examples

A: 2000, Al Gore frequently sighed audibly on air while Bush was talking, and in the Town Hall meeting, began walking up close to Bush. Now this may come off as being negative against your opponent as you suggest, but at the end of the day the public saw it as rude.

B: 1992 George H.W. Bush Sr. was caught checking his watch out of annoyance during a debate between Perot and Clinton. Again this type of attitude played horrible with the audience.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, Ryan spent a substantial portion of the debate focusing on foreign policy. Specifically, he preached strength. Yet Biden overpowered him. It looks bad to argue that you're going to take a stronger stance in the international community, then allow your opponent to steamroll you. It makes it look like your claim of strength is invalid.

And... what does that have to do with his demeanor?

[mr_pikachu]

Well, I'm speaking more toward Ryan's inability to make the point about the Obama-Biden ticket lacking strength, because in my view, Biden showed substantially more strength than Ryan tonight. I do think Biden started to look bad with some of the scoffing while Ryan was still speaking (a separate issue from the interruptions themselves). But while those were a minor black mark against Biden, Ryan's lack of force tonight rendered his "strength" argument impotent.

This is just my take on things, not really a statement of fact. I'm just calling it how I saw it, from my perspective.

[Roy Karrde]

Well, I'm speaking more toward Ryan's inability to make the point about the Obama-Biden ticket lacking strength, because in my view, Biden showed substantially more strength than Ryan tonight. I do think Biden started to look bad with some of the scoffing while Ryan was still speaking (a separate issue from the interruptions themselves). But while those were a minor black mark against Biden, Ryan's lack of force tonight rendered his "strength" argument impotent.

This is just my take on things, not really a statement of fact. I'm just calling it how I saw it, from my perspective.

Well let me again point out two examples.

A: 2000, Al Gore frequently sighed audibly on air while Bush was talking, and in the Town Hall meeting, began walking up close to Bush. Now this may come off as being negative against your opponent as you suggest, but at the end of the day the public saw it as rude.

B: 1992 George H.W. Bush Sr. was caught checking his watch out of annoyance during a debate between Perot and Clinton. Again this type of attitude played horrible with the audience.

Now George H.W. Bush and Al Gore had great rhetoric and strength in their debates. But at the end of the day their rude attitude ended up hurting them with voters.

[mr_pikachu]

Fair enough. I'd only make two points in response to that -- which, again, are mere speculation at this point.

First, those were presidential debates which showed the demeanor of the main candidates who will stand out in people's minds. Any "meanness" of the running mates may have less of an effect on those impressions of the ticket -- it's hard for me to say at this point. Admittedly, I don't know my history of vice presidential debates well enough to speak much on this issue.

Second, the Romney-Ryan ticket clearly had the momentum entering this debate. I don't think that Biden's approach will accelerate that; my guess, which is nothing more than conjecture, is that it may have muddied the waters a bit. I wonder, at least, if this performance may have given voters a reason to doubt the conclusions that they drew after the first presidential debate. Romney looked so dominant over Obama in round one, but Ryan looked comparatively timid here, which might put a damper on the initial impression that the Romney-Ryan ticket was stronger than the Obama-Biden one. (That's assuming, of course, that they put any stock in the running mate's strength as showing the capabilities of the ticket as a whole.)

I just think that if anything, this debate will put the brakes on Romney's momentum, keeping him from running away with this. That's just my guess, and time will tell whether the polls validate my impression or whether they prove me wrong.

[Roy Karrde]

First, those were presidential debates which showed the demeanor of the main candidates who will stand out in people's minds. Any "meanness" of the running mates may have less of an effect on those impressions of the ticket -- it's hard for me to say at this point. Admittedly, I don't know my history of vice presidential debates well enough to speak much on this issue.

That can be very true, if you want here are some reactions from the media about Biden's attitude.

The New York Times’ Ashley Parker: “Biden’s grin is Chesire Cat caliber.”

PBS’ Jeff Greenfield: “Biden has always had a smile that at times is really, really inappropriate.”

MSNBC’s S.E. Cupp: “Biden needs to laugh a little less through the Libya, Middle East, nuclear Iran segment.”

Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza: “Ok. I have decided. I find the Biden smile slightly unsettling.”

Townhall.com’s Guy Benson: “Will Biden laugh his ass off at the terrible economy, too?”

BuzzFeed’s Ben Smith: “So did Biden practice laughing at Ryan???”

ABC’s Rick Klein: “Biden on verge of breaking down in laughter when Ryan talks.”

Washington Times’ Emily Miller: “Biden laughing when he disagrees with Ryan is so annoying. Like a child in time out.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz293CR5o61

Second, the Romney-Ryan ticket clearly had the momentum entering this debate. I don't think that Biden's approach will accelerate that; my guess, which is nothing more than conjecture, is that it may have muddied the waters a bit. I wonder, at least, if this performance may have given voters a reason to doubt the conclusions that they drew after the first presidential debate. Romney looked so dominant over Obama in round one, but Ryan looked comparatively timid here, which might put a damper on the initial impression that the Romney-Ryan ticket was stronger than the Obama-Biden one. (That's assuming, of course, that they put any stock in the running mate's strength as showing the capabilities of the ticket as a whole.)

I just think that if anything, this debate will put the brakes on Romney's momentum, keeping him from running away with this. That's just my guess, and time will tell whether the polls validate my impression or whether they prove me wrong.

Yet was Romney-Ryan gaining on diseffective leftist, or on the middle shifting toward them. If it is the leftists then Biden did his job as he hammered home alot of red meat. If it was for the middle, then I can't see how Biden's performance changed anything.

#CNNUndecideds vote that the #VPdebate was a tie. One-third say Joe Biden won. One-third say Paul Ryan won. One-third are undecided.

CBS’s insta-poll had it 50/31 for Biden, although both candidates gained ground among undecideds.

CNBC says Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8%

Looks like largely a wash.

Edit again: CNN-ORC post-debate poll of Registered Voters: 48% said Ryan won. 44% said Biden won. Sampling error: +-5%. #CNNDebate

[Dark Sage]

Seems that Lindsay Lohan is supporting Mitt Romney.

Well, good... When I saw the headline that said she had made an endorsement, I was VERY afraid that she was supporting Obama.

My message to Romney and the rest of the GOP: You can have her!

Along with Ted Nugent, Hulk Hogan, and the other psycho celebrities who you seem to attract.

[Roy Karrde]

Seems that Lindsay Lohan is supporting Mitt Romney.

Well, good... When I saw the headline that said she had made an endorsement, I was VERY afraid that she was supporting Obama.

My message to Romney and the rest of the GOP: You can have her!

Along with Ted Nugent, Hulk Hogan, and the other psycho celebrities who you seem to attract.

well to be fair after Joe Biden's performance last night it is fair to say that Obama has already met their quota of drug addicted narcissists.

[Dark Sage]

Romney has made a lot of campagn promises. However, here are the things that he has promised to do on his FIRST DAY as President.

ENERGY

- Approve construction of the Keystone XL pipeline

- Sign an executive order boosting drilling

HEALTH CARE

- Sign an executive order that would pave the way to end Obamacare

IMMIGRATION

- Get started on a long-term plan to solve the problem of undocumented immigration

- Drop the lawsuit against Arizona for its measure cracking down on undocumented immigration

INTERNATIONAL

- Sign an executive order sanctioning China for unfair trade practices

- Reinstate the "Mexico City Policy," which bans U.S. funds from going to international family planning organizations that provide abortions

ECONOMY

- Submit a jobs package to Congress containing five bills and demand that the legislature act on them in 30 days:

•Reduce the corporate income tax rate to 25 percent

•Reinstate the president’s Trade Promotion Authority to facilitate negotiation of new trade agreements

•Explore opening more land for drilling

•Look at taking federal programs and returning responsibility to the states

•Cut non-security discretionary spending in the federal budget by 5 percent

OTHER

- Sign an executive order immediately eliminating Obama-era regulations that "unduly burden the economy or job creation"

- Fight to repeal Davis-Bacon Act, which requires that workers are paid prevailing wages on public works projects

- Sit down with Democrats and Republicans to promote bipartianism

Romney has said that he will do ALL THIS on his VERY FIRST DAY.

And if you believe he can actually do it all in one work day, then in the words of Al Sharpton, "I've got a bridge to sell ya!"

[Dark Sage]

But does that work well? Biden was acting like a smirking ass hole, Biden may have held his own on Ryan, but his demeanor was ugly and could very well come off as rude and a cranky old man debating a polite young man.

Kinda reminds you of something, doesn't it? Like maybe how Romney tore into the President last week?

Turnabout is fair play, fellah.

And here's another poll for you:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...ed-voters-say/

[Roy Karrde]

Kinda reminds you of something, doesn't it? Like maybe how Romney tore into the President last week?

Turnabout is fair play, fellah.

Except how Biden acted was far far worse. Laughing like a maniac during some very important topics just makes him look insane.

Infact as the "Evil" British Newspaper is saying today: Joe Biden will be haunted by the ghost of the sighing Al Gore

"But Biden's performance here in Danville, Kentucky was both comical and self-defeating. Just as Al Gore sighed and rolled his eyes in 2000, so Biden smirked and guffawed. He gesticulated wildly and jabbed his finger. He interrupted Ryan and the moderator Martha Raddatz. Many women and swing voters will have hated it.

Perhaps the even bigger problem the Obama campaign will have in the coming days is that Biden, again just like Gore in 2000, repeatedly exaggerated and mischaracterised for effect. And worse than Gore - who was caught in a series of small lies in 2000 - Biden was demonstrably untruthful in some big respects."

http://harndenblog.dailymail.co.uk/2...-the-fact.html

And here's another poll for you:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...ed-voters-say/

Didn't I already mention that one? And I do hate to sound like a broken record but.... "17 percent identify as Republicans, and 25 percent say they are Democrats." Why did they have a D+8 poll when it is merely undecided voters?

By the way there seems to be some MAJOR fall out over Biden's lies on Benguazi.