2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

Well, I'm speaking more toward Ryan's inability to make the point about the Obama-Biden ticket lacking strength, because in my view, Biden showed substantially more strength than Ryan tonight. I do think Biden started to look bad with some of the scoffing while Ryan was still speaking (a separate issue from the interruptions themselves). But while those were a minor black mark against Biden, Ryan's lack of force tonight rendered his "strength" argument impotent.

This is just my take on things, not really a statement of fact. I'm just calling it how I saw it, from my perspective.

Well let me again point out two examples.

A: 2000, Al Gore frequently sighed audibly on air while Bush was talking, and in the Town Hall meeting, began walking up close to Bush. Now this may come off as being negative against your opponent as you suggest, but at the end of the day the public saw it as rude.

B: 1992 George H.W. Bush Sr. was caught checking his watch out of annoyance during a debate between Perot and Clinton. Again this type of attitude played horrible with the audience.

Now George H.W. Bush and Al Gore had great rhetoric and strength in their debates. But at the end of the day their rude attitude ended up hurting them with voters.

[mr_pikachu]

Fair enough. I'd only make two points in response to that -- which, again, are mere speculation at this point.

First, those were presidential debates which showed the demeanor of the main candidates who will stand out in people's minds. Any "meanness" of the running mates may have less of an effect on those impressions of the ticket -- it's hard for me to say at this point. Admittedly, I don't know my history of vice presidential debates well enough to speak much on this issue.

Second, the Romney-Ryan ticket clearly had the momentum entering this debate. I don't think that Biden's approach will accelerate that; my guess, which is nothing more than conjecture, is that it may have muddied the waters a bit. I wonder, at least, if this performance may have given voters a reason to doubt the conclusions that they drew after the first presidential debate. Romney looked so dominant over Obama in round one, but Ryan looked comparatively timid here, which might put a damper on the initial impression that the Romney-Ryan ticket was stronger than the Obama-Biden one. (That's assuming, of course, that they put any stock in the running mate's strength as showing the capabilities of the ticket as a whole.)

I just think that if anything, this debate will put the brakes on Romney's momentum, keeping him from running away with this. That's just my guess, and time will tell whether the polls validate my impression or whether they prove me wrong.

[Roy Karrde]

First, those were presidential debates which showed the demeanor of the main candidates who will stand out in people's minds. Any "meanness" of the running mates may have less of an effect on those impressions of the ticket -- it's hard for me to say at this point. Admittedly, I don't know my history of vice presidential debates well enough to speak much on this issue.

That can be very true, if you want here are some reactions from the media about Biden's attitude.

The New York Times’ Ashley Parker: “Biden’s grin is Chesire Cat caliber.”

PBS’ Jeff Greenfield: “Biden has always had a smile that at times is really, really inappropriate.”

MSNBC’s S.E. Cupp: “Biden needs to laugh a little less through the Libya, Middle East, nuclear Iran segment.”

Washington Post’s Chris Cillizza: “Ok. I have decided. I find the Biden smile slightly unsettling.”

Townhall.com’s Guy Benson: “Will Biden laugh his ass off at the terrible economy, too?”

BuzzFeed’s Ben Smith: “So did Biden practice laughing at Ryan???”

ABC’s Rick Klein: “Biden on verge of breaking down in laughter when Ryan talks.”

Washington Times’ Emily Miller: “Biden laughing when he disagrees with Ryan is so annoying. Like a child in time out.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz293CR5o61

Second, the Romney-Ryan ticket clearly had the momentum entering this debate. I don't think that Biden's approach will accelerate that; my guess, which is nothing more than conjecture, is that it may have muddied the waters a bit. I wonder, at least, if this performance may have given voters a reason to doubt the conclusions that they drew after the first presidential debate. Romney looked so dominant over Obama in round one, but Ryan looked comparatively timid here, which might put a damper on the initial impression that the Romney-Ryan ticket was stronger than the Obama-Biden one. (That's assuming, of course, that they put any stock in the running mate's strength as showing the capabilities of the ticket as a whole.)

I just think that if anything, this debate will put the brakes on Romney's momentum, keeping him from running away with this. That's just my guess, and time will tell whether the polls validate my impression or whether they prove me wrong.

Yet was Romney-Ryan gaining on diseffective leftist, or on the middle shifting toward them. If it is the leftists then Biden did his job as he hammered home alot of red meat. If it was for the middle, then I can't see how Biden's performance changed anything.

#CNNUndecideds vote that the #VPdebate was a tie. One-third say Joe Biden won. One-third say Paul Ryan won. One-third are undecided.

CBS’s insta-poll had it 50/31 for Biden, although both candidates gained ground among undecideds.

CNBC says Paul Ryan: 56%, Joe Biden: 36%, Neither: 8%

Looks like largely a wash.

Edit again: CNN-ORC post-debate poll of Registered Voters: 48% said Ryan won. 44% said Biden won. Sampling error: +-5%. #CNNDebate

[mr_pikachu]

Interesting, because that really isn't what I expected. I still wonder what the long-term effect on the polls will be (and by long-term, I mean around three days to a week from now), when voters have forgotten most of the debate and remember particular talking points and the overall tone. Nonetheless, that does refute some of my initial thoughts on how this debate might sway voters, because I honestly thought it would have a strong, immediate impact toward the Obama/Biden ticket.

[Roy Karrde]

Interesting, because that really isn't what I expected. I still wonder what the long-term effect on the polls will be (and by long-term, I mean around three days to a week from now), when voters have forgotten most of the debate and remember particular talking points and the overall tone. Nonetheless, that does refute some of my initial thoughts on how this debate might sway voters, because I honestly thought it would have a strong, immediate impact toward the Obama/Biden ticket.

Curious question, is anyone going to remember the talking points, or the creepy/rude looks from Joe Biden?

I mean honestly I cannot remember a thing from the Sarah Palin vs Joe Biden debate other than the fact that she seemed to deviate from the questioning and go after what she wanted to talk about. There is not a talking point I can remember, but I sure as hell can remember her demeanor and how poorly that played.

Edit: AP Poll: Ryan 51%, Biden 43%

[mr_pikachu]

Sorry, I misspoke a little in my last post. I don't think "talking points" was the best term, as I was more thinking about some of the one-liners that hit home.

Hey, I've been working on a statistics project for hours while also analyzing the debate. The brain gets a little weary after awhile.

[Roy Karrde]

Hey no prob man, good luck!

And this didn't take long...

[Dark Sage]

But does that work well? Biden was acting like a smirking ass hole, Biden may have held his own on Ryan, but his demeanor was ugly and could very well come off as rude and a cranky old man debating a polite young man.

Kinda reminds you of something, doesn't it? Like maybe how Romney tore into the President last week?

Turnabout is fair play, fellah.

And here's another poll for you:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...ed-voters-say/

[Roy Karrde]

Kinda reminds you of something, doesn't it? Like maybe how Romney tore into the President last week?

Turnabout is fair play, fellah.

Except how Biden acted was far far worse. Laughing like a maniac during some very important topics just makes him look insane.

Infact as the "Evil" British Newspaper is saying today: Joe Biden will be haunted by the ghost of the sighing Al Gore

"But Biden's performance here in Danville, Kentucky was both comical and self-defeating. Just as Al Gore sighed and rolled his eyes in 2000, so Biden smirked and guffawed. He gesticulated wildly and jabbed his finger. He interrupted Ryan and the moderator Martha Raddatz. Many women and swing voters will have hated it.

Perhaps the even bigger problem the Obama campaign will have in the coming days is that Biden, again just like Gore in 2000, repeatedly exaggerated and mischaracterised for effect. And worse than Gore - who was caught in a series of small lies in 2000 - Biden was demonstrably untruthful in some big respects."

http://harndenblog.dailymail.co.uk/2...-the-fact.html

And here's another poll for you:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-250_162-...ed-voters-say/

Didn't I already mention that one? And I do hate to sound like a broken record but.... "17 percent identify as Republicans, and 25 percent say they are Democrats." Why did they have a D+8 poll when it is merely undecided voters?

By the way there seems to be some MAJOR fall out over Biden's lies on Benguazi.

[Dark Sage]

Seems that Lindsay Lohan is supporting Mitt Romney.

Well, good... When I saw the headline that said she had made an endorsement, I was VERY afraid that she was supporting Obama.

My message to Romney and the rest of the GOP: You can have her!

Along with Ted Nugent, Hulk Hogan, and the other psycho celebrities who you seem to attract.

[Roy Karrde]

Seems that Lindsay Lohan is supporting Mitt Romney.

Well, good... When I saw the headline that said she had made an endorsement, I was VERY afraid that she was supporting Obama.

My message to Romney and the rest of the GOP: You can have her!

Along with Ted Nugent, Hulk Hogan, and the other psycho celebrities who you seem to attract.

well to be fair after Joe Biden's performance last night it is fair to say that Obama has already met their quota of drug addicted narcissists.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, since you seem so anxious to hear the truth about the security issue of the U.S. consolate attack, why don't you push for the truth about what actually happened there?

I keep hearing the same ridiculous lie from people (all of them Romney supporters) saying that the ambassador was sodomized and then shot.

These people watch too many movies. The truth of the matter is, he was taken to the hospital by a Libyan soldier, where he died 45 minutes later of smoke inhilation after doctors unsuccessfully tried to revive him.

Crazy stories like the one I keep hearing only add fuel to the fires started by idiots like Orly Taitz and Donald Trump, and make me question why Mr. Romney OR Mr. Obama want the job of running this country at all. I mean really, would you want to lead a nation full of ignorant jerks?

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, since you seem so anxious to hear the truth about the security issue of the U.S. consolate attack, why don't you push for the truth about what actually happened there?

I keep hearing the same ridiculous lie from people (all of them Romney supporters) saying that the ambassador was sodomized and then shot.

These people watch too many movies. The truth of the matter is, he was taken to the hospital by a Libyan soldier, where he died 45 minutes later of smoke inhilation after doctors unsuccessfully tried to revive him.

Crazy stories like the one I keep hearing only add fuel to the fires started by idiots like Orly Taitz and Donald Trump, and make me question why Mr. Romney OR Mr. Obama want the job of running this country at all. I mean really, would you want to lead a nation full of ignorant jerks?

How is that even close to being relevant. When I and many others on the right speak of learning the truth we are talking about why the Administration lied to the American Public. Why the requests for extra security was not met. Why did the State Department not see 9/11 as a potential attack day for our embassies in the middle east. Using a strawman of "these people" for a argument that has no relevance to the real questions that need to be answered is mischaracterising the argument.

By the way the whole sodomize thing, came from not Romney supporters, but a Lebanese news organization Tayyar.org that also credited AFP for it, AFP has since said they were not part of that report and asked the Tayyar.org to change the report.

Also the Libyan Free Press also says the same story. Does not mean it is true or not, but it shows how a story can start on the ground over there and be picked up over here.

[Dark Sage]

I know where it came from Roy. And it's sad that some people will believe the same Libyan news agencies that are known for publishing Al Qaida propaganda over our own.

My point is, this wasn't about the security issue at all. That's an actual concern that needs to be addressed.

I'm simply appalled by the ignorance that many people are showing going into this election. They're concentrating on completely false and downright ridiculous claims. I've even heard some stories today about how the Obama Administration fabricated the Bin Laden raid.

It's the same trend that made people think that Obama was a Muslim or that he didn't know the National Anthem, or so much other bullcrap during the 2008 campaign. I ask you... Are we really this gullible?

I mean really... If all these conspiracy theories were real, Donald Trump would have vanished without a trace a long time ago.

[mr_pikachu]

I mean really... If all these conspiracy theories were real, Donald Trump would have vanished without a trace a long time ago.

DS, you're missing the point. And the point is that Donald Trump is secretly Elvis.



Okay, on a serious note, it's sad that major security issues are being drowned out by conspiracy theories like the "fabricated" bin Laden mission. That one doesn't make sense from any angle. I mean, really... if Obama was going to fake something like that, wouldn't he wait until, I don't know, the month before voters return to the polls?

Anyway. Statistically, it looks like Romney's nationwide gains in the polls pretty much levelled off prior to the VP debate. The RCP average has him up 1%, with five consecutive polls in the 0-2% range.

It should be noted that the Pew Research poll from Oct. 4-7 has Romney up 4%, while a Politico survey which was mostly collected before the debate gave Obama a 1% edge. With that in mind, the best I'm willing to give Romney here is maybe a 1-2% advantage, reaching a fairly clear plateau before last night's tussle.

[Dark Sage]

DS, you're missing the point. And the point is that Donald Trump is secretly Elvis.

Elvis would have better hair, Brian.

[Roy Karrde]

I do kind of find it funny Dark Sage that you are getting outrageously outraged over this. I mean where was all this outrage between 2001 to 2009?

Here let me give you examples

2001: Bush's brother/Karl Rove/Bush's Election Team secretly stole the election from Al Gore

2002: Bush brought about 9/11 with a secret Neo Con/CIA job

2003: Bush invaded Iraq for oil ( Something that was a large part of the Liberal Lexicon, to the point that "No War for Oil" was part of the "Debate" on the last season of the West Wing ).

2004: Bush has secretly captured Saddam and is going to bring him out near election day

2005/2006: Bush has secretly captured Osama Bin Laden and is going to bring him out when his ratings get low.

2008: Bush is going to declare martial law to remain as President and keep Obama from seeking office.

I mean it was like every year there was a new conspiracy theory brought out by the left. Some of them like "No War for Oil" got so popular that it overtook I would say almost if not a complete majority of the left.

[Dark Sage]

Well, Roy, I admit that those all sound pretty damn stupid.

However, to be perfectly honest, until I read your post about a minute ago, the only ones I had even heard about were the first and third ones. The others are news to me.

I suppose they weren't as widespread as you thought, nor were morons like Orly Taitz actually trying to get judges to listen to them about such things and making absolute fools of themselves by doing so at the time.

Did you even once see an incompetant lawyer-slash-dentist-slash-real estate salesperson challenge Bush's right to be President in court because of the first example you gave? No. Obama seems to be the only one who has spawned such people. That's the difference.

[Magmar]

I heard on CNN while at dunkin donuts earlier today (I'm a Rhode Islander and hence I run on dunkin') and... well, the guy was saying something about Obama wanting to start the United States of Islam and I was like wait what when did he say that??

Are you guys tired of politics yet???? It's endless anxiety and disappointment to follow politics.

[Dark Sage]

I heard on CNN while at dunkin donuts earlier today (I'm a Rhode Islander and hence I run on dunkin') and... well, the guy was saying something about Obama wanting to start the United States of Islam and I was like wait what when did he say that??

Are you guys tired of politics yet???? It's endless anxiety and disappointment to follow politics.

Quite frankly, Magmar, yes, yes I am.

[Roy Karrde]

I suppose they weren't as widespread as you thought,

In terms of political circles at the time they were pretty wide spread by the lunatic fringe of the left

nor were morons like Orly Taitz actually trying to get judges to listen to them about such things and making absolute fools of themselves by doing so at the time.

Did you even once see an incompetant lawyer-slash-dentist-slash-real estate salesperson challenge Bush's right to be President in court because of the first example you gave? No. Obama seems to be the only one who has spawned such people. That's the difference.

First that is a apples and oranges comparison, Bush took the Presidency on a Supreme Court vote, as such the precedent of it makes it very hard for a court to overturn to begin with. Second Obama wasn't the only one to be challenged in court by some one making a fool of himself. In 2004 William Rodriguez sued President Bush, the CIA, and about 155 other parties alleging they were part of a massive conspiracy to bring down the World Trade Center and fly a missile into the Pentagon. So to say that it is only Obama is utterly false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William...z#RICO_lawsuit

Also Survey USA conducted a poll in Tampa Florida to see how minds changed after the VP debate.

13% say they changed which candidate for President they support as a result of the debate. Of those who tell SurveyUSA they changed their mind:

* 44% switched from the Obama ticket to the Romney ticket.
* 29% switched from undecided to the Romney ticket.
* A total of 73% switched to the Romney ticket.

* 18% switched from the Romney ticket to the Obama ticket.
* 6% switched from undecided to the Obama ticket.
* A total of 24% switched to the Obama ticket.

http://www.surveyusa.com/client/Poll...d-261b4ee426eb

Ryan also edged out Biden by 42/38 in the poll.

The D/R/I break down is 35/37/28, which is on par with the 2010 midterm election. I will say that the 2%+ for Republicans does put it well into the margin of error on debate winner, but it still is what it is. In the meantime, the drastic switch may be a indicator at how poorly Biden's laughing played with people.

[Plantae]

Other matters aside, this is precisely the reason I will not be voting for Mitt Romney this election.

I'll let Roy explain why it actually makes perfect sense.

[Roy Karrde]

Other matters aside, this is precisely the reason I will not be voting for Mitt Romney this election.

I'll let Roy explain why it actually makes perfect sense.

Kind of like this?



Funny thing about politicians when they have had years and years of talking they do end up being contradictory.

[Dark Sage]

Romney has made a lot of campagn promises. However, here are the things that he has promised to do on his FIRST DAY as President.

ENERGY

- Approve construction of the Keystone XL pipeline

- Sign an executive order boosting drilling

HEALTH CARE

- Sign an executive order that would pave the way to end Obamacare

IMMIGRATION

- Get started on a long-term plan to solve the problem of undocumented immigration

- Drop the lawsuit against Arizona for its measure cracking down on undocumented immigration

INTERNATIONAL

- Sign an executive order sanctioning China for unfair trade practices

- Reinstate the "Mexico City Policy," which bans U.S. funds from going to international family planning organizations that provide abortions

ECONOMY

- Submit a jobs package to Congress containing five bills and demand that the legislature act on them in 30 days:

•Reduce the corporate income tax rate to 25 percent

•Reinstate the president’s Trade Promotion Authority to facilitate negotiation of new trade agreements

•Explore opening more land for drilling

•Look at taking federal programs and returning responsibility to the states

•Cut non-security discretionary spending in the federal budget by 5 percent

OTHER

- Sign an executive order immediately eliminating Obama-era regulations that "unduly burden the economy or job creation"

- Fight to repeal Davis-Bacon Act, which requires that workers are paid prevailing wages on public works projects

- Sit down with Democrats and Republicans to promote bipartianism

Romney has said that he will do ALL THIS on his VERY FIRST DAY.

And if you believe he can actually do it all in one work day, then in the words of Al Sharpton, "I've got a bridge to sell ya!"

[Roy Karrde]

You do realize Dark Sage that many of those things such as signing executive orders, reinstating policies, or opening up commissions to look at something can simply be signed on a sheet of paper prepared during those two months that he is President-Elect. Unless you are suggesting Romney is going to come down with a case of carpel tunnel syndrome, I doubt he will have any problem doing that.

[Dark Sage]

I didn't watch the debate last night so I can't make an honest opinion of it (I worked third shift the night before, and was exhausted).

But... I can post this CNN snap poll, and it appears that Mr. Obama did a much better job than last time.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/.../?spt=hs&or=tn

I did hear that when Romney accused Mr. Obama of taking too long to declare the consolate attacks an act of terrorism, the President corrected him by saying that he did so within the next day, and Ms. Crowley confirmed it. To which Mr. Obama responded, "Say that a little louder, Candy."

Edit: After reading more about the debate, I'm wondering if Ms. Crowley has ever considered running for political office herself. If anything, they should have had her moderating debates a long time ago.

[Roy Karrde]

I didn't watch the debate last night so I can't make an honest opinion of it (I worked third shift the night before, and was exhausted).

But... I can post this CNN snap poll, and it appears that Mr. Obama did a much better job than last time.

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2012/.../?spt=hs&or=tn

Should note a few things from that poll...

CNN Poll: Romney Wins 54-40 on Economy,
49-46 on Health Care,
51-44 on Taxes,
59-36 on Deficit
All in Favor of Romney

I did hear that when Romney accused Mr. Obama of taking too long to declare the consolate attacks an act of terrorism, the President corrected him by saying that he did so within the next day, and Ms. Crowley confirmed it. To which Mr. Obama responded, "Say that a little louder, Candy."

Obama may be regretting that as Ms Crowley admitted after the debate that Romney was correct.

[Asilynne]

Just for anyone who might find it interesting, I found a transcript of the debate online (since I couldn't watch it last night). If you don't have time to watch a video and you are curious, here it is!

[Dark Sage]

Did you actually watch that video before posting it Roy?

She said that it was a case of Romney intepreting what "the definition of 'is' is."

She did not come right out and say that Romney was truly right. She was more or less saying that there is a difference between the letter of something that is spoken and the spirit of it.

[RedStarWarrior]

Should note a few things from that poll...

CNN Poll: Romney Wins 54-40 on Economy,
49-46 on Health Care,
51-44 on Taxes,
59-36 on Deficit
All in Favor of Romney

Yet the CNN poll said that Obama won overall. Obama was more aggressive but also more likable. That's very hard to do.

GObama!

[Roy Karrde]

Did you actually watch that video before posting it Roy?

She said that it was a case of Romney intepreting what "the definition of 'is' is."

She did not come right out and say that Romney was truly right. She was more or less saying that there is a difference between the letter of something that is spoken and the spirit of it.

Actually her "the definition of is is" was speaking of those that are picking it apart as people are doing it now. Note that she says twice "Governor Romney was right in the main"

[Dark Sage]

Roy, you're just upset because Romney didn't score the second knockout punch that you and the rest of his supporters expected him to.

The CNN poll is there in black and white.

Edit: Look, Roy. The only way a debate can truly be fair is if it has a moderator that is truly neutral and impartial.

Unfortuately, while such people might exist in a perfect world, they are nonexistant in this one.

[Heald]

Actually her "the definition of is is" was speaking of those that are picking it apart as people are doing it now. Note that she says twice "Governor Romney was right in the main"

I'm not sure that really matters too much to the people who watched the debate. Romney overplayed his hand by insisting it took Obama 14 days to call it an act of terror, and it really fucked up his point and his performance suffered. No surprise that Obama came off stronger during the debate, when he ran circles round Romney on points Romney really should be winning on. It also doesn't look that great that he's nit-picking over points like this which makes it look really obvious he is trying to politicise the deaths of four Americans.

It'll be interesting to see how the polls play out in the run-up to the last debate.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, you're just upset because Romney didn't score the second knockout punch that you and the rest of his supporters expected him to.

The CNN poll is there in black and white.

Edit: Look, Roy. The only way a debate can truly be fair is if it has a moderator that is truly neutral and impartial.

Unfortuately, while such people might exist in a perfect world, they are nonexistant in this one.

Yes the CNN poll is there in black and white showing that on issues, Romney ran away with it, something you cannot deny.

I'm not sure that really matters too much to the people who watched the debate. Romney overplayed his hand by insisting it took Obama 14 days to call it an act of terror, and it really fucked up his point and his performance suffered. No surprise that Obama came off stronger during the debate, when he ran circles round Romney on points Romney really should be winning on. It also doesn't look that great that he's nit-picking over points like this which makes it look really obvious he is trying to politicise the deaths of four Americans.

And if debates happened in a vacuum you would be right. However they do not, like in 2004 people who watched the debate thought that Bush won, when they watched the post debate they thought that Kerry won. When you have people hammering Obama and hammering Candy for this, it can only serve to hurt Obama. Because lets admit it, the last thing Obama wants to talk about is how he waited 14 days to call it terrorism.

[Telume]

I think Obama came out a lot stronger tonight.

I only watched about 10 minutes of the debate and could feel it; he was really pulling out all the punches.

At some points I heard Romney sort of falter and I honestly think Obama made him nervous.

If Obama comes out this strong in the 3rd debate, I think Romney's done.

[Roy Karrde]

If Obama comes out this strong in the 3rd debate, I think Romney's done.

That is a interesting observation since usually the 1st debate is the strongest impression, and Obama is still making up for lost ground in it. Not to mention if the election were to be held now, according to the polls, Romney would win.

[Heald]

And if debates happened in a vacuum you would be right. However they do not, like in 2004 people who watched the debate thought that Bush won, when they watched the post debate they thought that Kerry won. When you have people hammering Obama and hammering Candy for this, it can only serve to hurt Obama. Because lets admit it, the last thing Obama wants to talk about is how he waited 14 days to call it terrorism.

That's why I added the caveat as we still don't know whether the 14 days thing is going to stick. Frankly, Romney fucked up his chance at the debate, and continuing to play politics with a tragedy over the sake of semantics risks making him look like some kind of ogre. Even if he is right on this point, he can't change the fact that his performance hugely suffered and that Obama looked a lot more confident and on-message. In my opinion it'd serve him better to lick his wounds and begin to prepare for the 3rd debate, the general consensus is that Obama came off stronger overall and nitpicking over details isn't going to change that inconvenient fact.

That is a interesting observation since usually the 1st debate is the strongest impression, and Obama is still making up for lost ground in it. Not to mention if the election were to be held now, according to the polls, Romney would win.

The problem is that the election isn't being held now, so the point is moot. I have also found, in my many years of following elections and polls, and since placing bets on electoral results, that odds-makers are a lot better predictor of election results than day-to-day polls (mainly because they make their money this way, therefore far more to lose if they call it wrong). I could win almost 3 times the return on a bet on Romney than a bet on Obama at the moment, but I'm not placing a bet, mainly because I don't think Romney is going to win. Let the American voters prove otherwise next month.

[Roy Karrde]

That's why I added the caveat as we still don't know whether the 14 days thing is going to stick. Frankly, Romney fucked up his chance at the debate, and continuing to play politics with a tragedy over the sake of semantics risks making him look like some kind of ogre. Even if he is right on this point, he can't change the fact that his performance hugely suffered and that Obama looked a lot more confident and on-message. In my opinion it'd serve him better to lick his wounds and begin to prepare for the 3rd debate, the general consensus is that Obama came off stronger overall and nitpicking over details isn't going to change that inconvenient fact.

Well remember the thing is the third debate is on Foreign Policy, as such you could say it is good for Romney to keep Obama's failures and in many ways politicizing of Libya front of mind leading into that debate. As it keeps focus on Obama's second biggest weakness after the economy ( Libya ) and practically erases away any thing he gained from that debate.

[Dark Sage]

The CBS poll says that Obama is the winner too.

Btw, do you realize that the Fort Hood shooter has never been called a terrorist? He's been called an "extremist" and a "radical" by the media and the government, but not a terrorist. Apparently, putting that label on one of our own soldiers is bad, even if he is a murderer.

[Roy Karrde]

The CBS poll says that Obama is the winner too.

And it says Romney is a winner on the economy by a large margin.

Btw, do you realize that the Fort Hood shooter has never been called a terrorist? He's been called an "extremist" and a "radical" by the media and the government, but not a terrorist. Apparently, putting that label on one of our own soldiers is bad, even if he is a murderer.

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - August 9, 2012 (WPVI) -- An Army psychiatrist charged in the deadly Fort Hood shooting rampage meets six factors that indicate someone is a homegrown terrorist - including having three videos on his computer, a terrorism consultant said Thursday.

http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?se...rld&id=8766481