Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Unless Romney is going to argue that by mentioning Operations he was referring to the Day to Day Operations or to the Decision Making Operations, seeing how Operations is such a open term, and seeing how the statement was obviously crafted by campaign lawyers, either one is a open out for him.Originally Posted by kurai
No see what it plays into is desperation, the public doesn't care if signing a legal document counts as being part of the operation or not. By not being able to tie him to the outsourcing in 2001 and instead having to resort to calling him a felon. It makes the DNC and the Obama Campaign look desperate, that they have to dig into radical name calling. That is a level you do not want to reach in a political campaign especially when you are not running on ideas this time around.
Mind you Obama can go after Romney in ask what he is hiding, but by suggesting he is a felon, it completely and utterly destroys any credibility of the argument and causes the public to focus on that one radical statement. Furthermore it causes sympathy for Romney and makes Obama's campaign look out of control and radical.
Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 10:28 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Hey, Roy! I just heard some news that made me laugh out loud.
Remember that ad I mentioned that Romney had, where he mocked Mr. Obama's singing talents while flaunting his own.
YouTube has taken it down. Seems that whoever created the ad was committing a copyright violation!
Lol. At least with Mr. Obama's negative ads, he's not infringing on protected material...
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Yeah taken down by BGM the publisher of Obama's books.
But you know what? By taking it down it becomes forbidden, and causes people to go searching for it to find out what was so wrong in it. BGM just gave Romney alot of free publicity on a simple little ad!
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
No Roy, BGM filed a complaint, claiming that copyrighted material was used, and in accordance to their policy on copyrighted material YouTube is the one who took it down.
BGM was well within their rights to do so.
Searching for it will do nothing, because it has been removed from YouTube. Links to the ad will lead to a blank screen.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Yes because obviously no one else downloaded it and can reput it on Youtube, nor could it appear on any other video sharing sites correct?
Found it: http://electad.com/video/mitt-romney...class-layoffs/
Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 10:41 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
If anyone else puts it on YouTube, they'll take those down too.
If you can find it, be my guest.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Found it on Youtube too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYfBtnFf1Ls
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
unfortunately, romney's filing includes the term 'in any way'. it is readily apparent that his legal obligations were one particular way. arguing otherwise is not an "easy out", it is legalistic chicanery. this would be unworthy of the truthfulness required of a leader; it does not play well. thus, romney's evasiveness in federal filings is hardly a source for sympathy.
but perjury is a felony - i don't know why you are calling this a radical statement. it is absolutely worthwhile to examine through public discourse whether or not a felony has occured, as i am sure you would agree it must not be performed through the justice system against a political opponent. the same would be true if any candidate has attested to misleading documents.
as the argument for perjury can be made (as we have seen), people should know about it. it additionally has the benefit of advancing the obama campaign's overall objective of destabilizing the positive perception of romney's business experience. one has to buy into the now-present narrative that a candidate's secrets ought to remain secret in order to view this approach as a negative for obama, but this is an unjust concept.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
For the Obama Campaign to attack in that way they are going to need to explain the difference to the public, while also trying to televise the legal proceedings, as you note that is not going to happen, and the Romney Campaign has mountains of evidence to provide that he did not contribute to the decision making in any way, the idea that the Obama Campaign could win that fight is slim to none.
Okay maybe you do not get it, but unless the candidate has been convicted of a crime, you do not suggest that he is a felon. It makes your campaign look radical, as it suggests that you are trying to win by having your candidate go to jail, or you are trying to win through name calling.
It would be the same if McCain in 2008 went the full birther route and said Obama needed to provide his birth certificate. I am sure you would agree that having a Presidential Candidate certify that he was constitutionally able to serve would be something worthwhile to examine through public discourse. But in reality it makes the candidate look radical and willing to tear down his opponent with insane accusations. It does not take a political scientist to know that does not play well with the public.
And mind you since the Washington Post and Fact Check has already called the SEC accusations false, a line of attack the Obama Administration is pursuing, he is already on a losing battle.
You can do that with out calling your opponent a criminal, by going that route you look un-Presidential, especially when you have your campaign do it. In reality by having Obama's campaign act this way, and Obama be unwilling to deny it, it feeds into the narrative that Obama has no control over his Campaign, and that feeds into the perception that Obama just is not Presidential. Furthermore I would say it HEIGHTENS the Positive Perception of Romney and his Business Experience as it makes the public believe that the only way that Obama can attack his Business Experience is not through a fair debate, but through childish name calling. Obama needs to win over independents, and while calling Romney a felon may play well with the far left, it does not play well with the independents who are looking for some one who actually acts Presidential and can help the economy.
Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 11:02 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Okay, Roy, I was having a little fun, but now I'm angry.
You are so blindly loyal to the GOP, you refuse to admit that Romney's campaign did anything wrong, or that BGM was within its rights to make this complaint.
I could use my computer to make a picture of Charlie Brown and Snoopy and use it to advertise my web comic. But I won't do that, for two reasons.
The first reason is, if the estate of Charles Schulz found out, they'd send me a cease and desist letter at the very least, or sue the pants off me at worst.
The second reason is, I have respect for the work of Mr. Schulz, and would never copy his work! Anyone who uses copyrighted material without permission is breaking the law, and you cannot say in clear conscience that Romney is in the right here!
Edit: And btw... Your link doesn't lead to the ad in question. It leads to a different one.
Last edited by Dark Sage; 17th July 2012 at 11:07 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
we can agree that it is evident that felonious action ought to disqualify one from the presidency
at the same time, it would be most unjust for the department of justice to attempt to indict and try a political candidate in the middle of an election
thus, we are left with a trial by election with regard to potential perjury performed by romney
but this can not occur if you do not actually talk about perjury
thus, bringing perjury allegations to the public eye in order that they might be judged in the process of the election is not at all objectionable
quite the inverse: it demonstrates that obama is not willing to tyrannically undermine his opponent through an abuse of the executive branch, while at the same time allowing the public interest to be maintained through the electoral process. that is where the truth of romney's various filings will be determined, but the public could not judge this without knowing about it. it is not a radical accusation; it is an essential question.
Last edited by kurai; 17th July 2012 at 11:15 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
"The Romney ad seems like as clear-cut a case of fair use as can be imagined. Obama's singing is a core part of the ad's message, and copyright law explicitly mentions commentary and criticism as justifications for fair use. And it's hard to imagine the ad harming the market for "Let's Stay Together.""
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...bama-crooning/
The links leads to the Ad known as "Political Payoffs And Middle Class Layoffs" with a clip of Obama singing in it, that is the Ad that was taken down by BMG.
Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 11:26 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
all campaigns publish negative ads about their opponents
some of these ads are false
every politician has done something wrong in their life
STOP ACTING LIKE YOUR CANDIDATE IS THE ONLY PURE HEARTED SOUL ON THIS EARTH, BECAUSE THEY AREN'T.
Can you people please argue about why Obama or Romney SHOULD be elected and not why the person you don't support SHOULDN'T be elected? Last I checked this is what politics is supposed to be about.
I mean, Jesus Triplejumping Christ, we're talking about the SINGING of our candidates now???
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
-Benjamin Franklin
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Hey I would love to start talking about why Romney should be elected, and I agree the singing thing is a bit silly.
Romney has the business experience, having worked with Bain Capital he was known for bringing businesses back around, he has the ties to the industry and the knowledge about what is needed to get businesses hiring again.
He was a miracle worker at the Olympics, he took over at a time when the Salt Lake Olympics was in complete disarray and the Olympic Committee was looking to pull out of America all together. Through his work he completely turned around the problems it was having, and was able to pull on a show that no one thought possible.
He has experience working with a partisan legislature, I think we can all agree right now that politics is paralyzing Congress, Romney came in with a Democratic majority in his state Congress and was able to work with them to get bipartisan bills passed including health care legislation.
Er no, Romney singing was in Obama's ad, and both Ads I posted have clips of Obama singing in it.
Again that would be a poor course for Obama to take, if they wish to talk about Perjury then they have already lost the narrative, by going after the SEC documents, they have already put themselves in a possession where numerous Fact Checking organizations have called them out as being false. At this point any further talk about perjury will only lead back to those false accusations.
It is when A: It has already been found false through your initial attacks on the SEC documents.
B: It makes your candidate look like he is trying to dodge the economy.
C: It makes your candidate look like they are taking radical steps to discredit the opponent, again I note what would happen if McCain had attacked Obama on Birtherism.
No it is a radical accusation, period, end of story. It suggests that the Obama Administration is desperate, that they are willing to throw anything and everything out to stop Romney, including suggest he is a felon, they are scared of him, scared that he may win. That is what the accusation suggests, and mind you just because a opponent is not willing to use the Justice Department to investigate, does not give credence or support to such accusations or help the opponent. Again Bush could very well have instructed the Justice Department to publicly investigate the Birtherism claims in 2008, but that would not have helped him or McCain, it would have looked like they were trying to distract the public while the economy is falling down around them, the same could be said now.
And mind you that by going this route, Obama is seen as a typical politician, a bully partisan willing to engage in South Side Chicago Politics. That takes another hit on Obama's image, and only helps drive independents away.
Last edited by Roy Karrde; 17th July 2012 at 01:43 PM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Okay Bear, I'll tell you why I think Romney shouldn't be elected:
He's a lying hypocrite.
Want proof? He has tried, very unsuccessfully, to convince the public that his Health Care Plan while governor was any different than the President's, which he now staunchly opposes. In truth, the two plans are almost identical.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
As for why I think Obama should be elected, well, I've posted this link before, but I think I'll do it again. It's been updated since last time:
http://obamaachievements.org/list
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Dude post what you actually think is a reason, not just post a website. Explain why YOU think he should be elected.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
You want my honest answer?
Unlike Romney, I trust him.
Also, I actually like him. Which is more than I can say for most Republicans these days.
I don't like Romney's views on the rights of women or minorities. I find them backwards and outdated.
I feel that Obama cares more about the lower and middle class than Romney does, which I feel is the case for most Republicans.
I don't like Romney's views on abortion or the death penalty, and I do not want to see the Affordable Health Care Act repealed. It may not be the best, but it is better than what we previously had, which was nothing at all.
Those are my honest answers. Now kindly do not provide links leading to technical mumbo-jumbo that you feels proves I am wrong, because those are simple answers, and I don't want them to become a complex debate.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Okay so your argument boils down to "Obama cares more about women, minorities, lower, and middle class" and "Obama wont repeal Obamacare". That is fine positions, and you are free to have them. I am just curious if there is anything you believe that Obama can do to fix the failing economy, or the stalemate in Congress? You know two of the biggest things people care about right now.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
With Congress' approval rating in the toilet, mostly due to them wasting time and not doing their job, I have a feeling that the one we have in January will mostly be a new one. Hopefully a better one. Hopefully with a different House Speaker.
Seriously, Roy, I doubt I'm alone when I say that this is the worst Congress in the Modern Age.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
But with that probably not happening, and the Democrats possibly losing the Senate, what do you believe Obama can do better to work with Congress that can get things passed? We know Romney has experience working with a partisan Congress, so can you tell me what Obama would do differently?
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
We'll see, Roy... We'll see...
Worst Congress in the Modern Era...
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Okay it may be the worst Congress in the modern era, but the President still has to deal with them. So instead of waiting for Congress to change, can you tell me how Obama will be able to deal with them differently to make them more proactive? Or are you telling me that electing Obama will result in 4 more years of Congressional stalemate?
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
No Roy, I'm not.
Trying to convince you is like trying to hold the ocean back with a broom. Even if I told you how I thought Obama would do it, you'd have a counter arguement. No matter what arguement I make, you're sure to have a half-assed response or a link to some conservative webpage about how Romney can do it better than Obama.
See, I'm firmly convinved that the only way you'll admit that Romney is unelectable is if he loses the election. You were the same way in 2008.
In fact, if I remember correctly, you refused to accept the results of the exit polls that showed that Obama had won Pennsylvania. You were defiant to the very end.
And even though Romney is not half the man McCain was, I fully expect the same thing out of you this time around.
I don't know why I bother. You claim to come to this post for fun, but it's a headache to me. I wish Heald would lock this post so you could stop posting your rhetoric. This website is supposed to be about Pokemon, for pete's sake.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Dude I am not trying to argue with you on this, I am not posting any rebuttals right now to what you are saying, all I am trying to do is get a more nuanced answer out of you, that is honestly all I am doing.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Why do you say that like you're not doing the exact. Same. Thing.
Roy responded to my post with at least some background info on his case, and he managed to do it without bashing Obama. You, on the other hand, responded with almost nothing and laced your pro-Obama argument with anti-Romney jabs. I'm indifferent on the matter so I don't support either candidate more than the other, but if I had to choose based on the arguments of you two I'd have to go with Roy. You, sir, are entirely too easy to bait and rile up, which makes you prone to arguments and knee-jerk responses based on emotion rather than fact. You can't be a master debater by pretending your opponent is a moron, you have to respect and research the opposing position so you can more effectively counter it.
In any case, stop getting so angry at Roy's posts. It's very obvious by your responses that you're frustrated, which is precisely what the opposition WANTS in a debate. You want to win the arguments? Stay cool and keep your emotions in check.
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
-Benjamin Franklin
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
*snicker*
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Unfortunately for you, this is how I feel when I read your posts arguing with Roy:
Please proceed.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
i think we can agree that we have established that the SEC documents are not the FEC documents, and that the felony claims arising out of the former are misleading. however, as the SEC documents are the evidence serves to that undermine the claims in romney's public disclosure forms, connecting perjury with the SEC is not problematic: it points to the potential perjury in relation to the FEC.
causing an economic collapse (if you wish to portray it as such) is not the sole criteria for eliminating one's chances at the presidency. as has been stated, felonious action is an equally valid method of disqualification. such has been intended since the original authoring of the constitution.
it is only a distraction in the sense that it is not directly about the economy, but this does not mean that it is about an unimportant subject. if romney is willing to perjure himself over simple disclosure forms, he would be unworthy of high office - let The People become informed about it, investigate the circumstances, and judge for themselves through the election.
but of course, the obama campaign will be doing whatever they can to stop their opponent from winning. this is hardly "South Side Chicago Politics" (which is hilarious). the SEC/FEC documents are a good situation for them, as they gain the advantage both through seeking Justice and through undermining their opponent. it is exactly what one ought to expect from an open election process.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
every time someone says "FEC" I want to add "ES" to the end of it so
freakin
bad
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
-Benjamin Franklin
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
So what should the Democrats say. "Hey you know we fucked up on the SEC, Romney didn't commit perjury there, but we double promise with sugar on top that he might possibly, kind of, sort of, committed perjury with a FEC filing".
Yeah... forget about stopping a Romney Administration, the public would distrust and hate the Democratic party so much they would be lucky to even have a chance come 2020.
Sure and if we are going to go full retard here why don't we check to see if Obama is a Kenyan? I mean we may not be sure, so lets look into it, and since we are not sure, we will refer to him as "The Possible Kenyan" until he is proven innocent.
Jesus F'ing Christ are you politically tone deaf.
Of course it is a distraction and a unimportant subject, people who are unemployed do not give a damn about what "involvement" may or may not mean inside of the legal sphere. People who are living pay check to pay check do not care, people who are worried their company is about to shut down do not care. People who see the economy going into the shitter do not care.
They want to know what the candidate will do to help them, not some utter stupidity on a document. To believe otherwise is pretty pathetic.
And since you are willing to go Full Retard here, lets continue with the Kenyan thing, Obama could have allegiance to another nation, hey he also might be a Muslim, lets investigate that. Because if he could lie about his religion who knows what he will lie about. Lets let ALL the information come out right? Let the public decide? I mean why not lets make a whole idiotic political parade out of it.
No it is not, you seek to undermine your opponent through the realm of ideas, not through looking for loopholes through the legal process. Again that is South Side Chicago Politics. I would assume you are atleast smart enough to know how Obama won his first election right? Not through the realm of ideas, not a debate as to which person is better, but by using the legal system to disqualify them. Again South Side Chicago Politics.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Just noticed that Fact Check.org has also tackled Romney's 2011 Public Financial Disclosure Report
http://factcheck.org/2012/07/factche...nt-is-all-wet/
Unless kurai has some new information to report on what he believes is a felony that contradicts Factcheck, I would consider this line of debate closed.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
an interesting standard of proof, given that proving that he has actually committed the crime would require a trial. [consider that factcheck's analysis entirely hinges on whether or not romney "left active management" whereas his filing claims non-involvement "in any way". this fails to address the issue of whether or not his legally required participation in the SEC filings is one such way.]
if, as you argue, it is unimportant whether or not romney concealed information in federal filings, we can establish by parity of reasoning that it would not matter if the obama campaign misrepresents pretty much anything else. despite this, somehow we find the argument that the development of candidate distrust will only occur on one side - this is implausible.
thus, it is certainly pathetic to expect a certain standard of honesty from one's executive. rest assured that any claims of misrepresentation coming out of the campaigns can now be cast aside as meaningless. whether or not one's leader is a liar is inconsequential - even if perjury is an indictable and impeachable offense, only campaign promises about economic development are relevant to the decisions of the electorate. this is why no campaign ever mentions anything other than economic policy. it is curious to see the repeated presentation of marxist doctrine - that the political superstructure will necessarily and ultimately reflect economic conditions. it is immediately apparent that even if this is the case, intermediate causal points can and will reflect different priorities.
additionally, i believe you will find that the public already went "full retard" in their public decision on whether or not obama was qualified for office. in spite of efforts to the contrary, no adequate argument was produced that could persuade people that obama was unlawfully misrepresenting himself, and he was elected to the presidency. if new evidence exists to overturn this decision, let it be presented. this is the essence of a trial by election.
it is entirely plausible that other factors must play into the election, but success brings vindication on such issues of material fact. obama won and it was decided that he was not born in kenya, perhaps romney will win and it will be clear that he was not a perjurer. that such judgement ought to be conducted by the public is entirely compatible with the existing political system.
Last edited by kurai; 17th July 2012 at 11:54 PM. Reason: post post
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Seeing how the SEC filings were added in the article in the evidence presented, it was determined by Fact Check that it did not amount to enough evidence to be considered perjury. As such it can be said that they did de facto address it, especially by adding that Obama has not provided sufficient proof when the SEC filings was part of the initial proof given. As such it was seen that the "Left Active Management" was seen as enough proof that Romney was not involved in their operations even by signing the SEC documents.
As you notice it largely has not mattered, Obama has thrown everything at Romney to the last few weeks, amounting to nearly 100 million in negative ads, including many lies about Romney. And yet the two remain at parity in the polls, and the economy remains by far the top target for people.
No I will note that only a small minority of people actually went full retard, the rest of the public did not give a damn as we were heading into a depression. I would say that the same argument can be presented here, where the public see's a wild accusation ( Obama being a Kenyan/Romney being a felon ), and dismisses it based on the concerns that directly effect them. So far just like the argument that Obama is a Kenyan remained largely at right wing blogs, the argument that Romney is a felon has largely been left to the blogs. A quick google of Romney FEC Felon, shows it only showing up at far lefty blogs like Fire Dog Lake, Mother Jones, and Daily Kos. The reality is the Democratic Party realizes a losing battle when they see it, and having already been bitten by Washington Post and Fact Check on the SEC allegations ( And FEC allegations with Fact Check.org ) it is logical they are attempting to move on, unless they wish to be pegged as insane nut jobs like the Birthers.
Except the public doesn't care, you are not going to see a indepth five hour analysis on if Obama was born in Kenya on ABC, just as you are not going to see the same analysis on Romney. To say that success brings vindication is as absurd as it is stupid. The public did not sit down with all the facts on Obama in 2008 and decide that he was a American, they laughed down the argument the minute that it was made. That does not mean Obama is any more or less a Kenyan, or here Romney is any more or less a felon. It is that the public saw it as a pathetically stupid argument and choose to ignore what ever facts were presented and instead focus on what matters to them.
Last edited by Roy Karrde; 18th July 2012 at 12:13 AM.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
So, Heald, you won't lock this post because you consider it amusing?
Roy, I sincerely apologize for every nasty thing I've said to you on this thread... I know now that I was being played for a dupe.
I still intend to support and vote for Mr. Obama... And whatever your political goals are, I wish you the best in them.
But I sure as Hell will not argue with you for someone's amusement. And I advise you not to do the same. I have my pride.
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Taking bets on how long it takes for you to respond again to a political argument made in this thread... Cos that's what you said last time
X-rated since April 2012!
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Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
My money is on later this afternoon, maybe 5 hours from now?
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
-Benjamin Franklin
Obama is a black man.
Discuss.
EDIT Also:
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
EDIT: Stupid link
Last edited by Bear; 18th July 2012 at 03:58 PM.
"A closed mouth gathers no feet."
-Benjamin Franklin
Re: 2012 U.S. Presidential Election
Jesus Christ Almighty this thread is gold. I've been waiting for years for something like this.
Thanks, Misc.!
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