2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

Frankly, I don't think it will be an "election killer" for Obama.

Depends how deeply the press looks into Obama's failures.

On the other hand, for the guy holding the press conference that seemed like it was set up to make it look like he was President already, as if he believed that to be the case with his oversized ego... I'm not too sure.

Actually if he wanted to make himself look like the President already, he would have avoided taking questions from the press

[Dark Sage]

Depends how deeply the press looks into Obama's failures.

As I have said - repeatedly - YOU are doing that. The press is not. They are focused more on Romney, and not favorably.

[Roy Karrde]

As I have said - repeatedly - YOU are doing that. The press is not. They are focused more on Romney, and not favorably.

Which shows the failures of the press does it not?

But to say the press is not looking into the warning signs is false, as noted by this from the UK Telegraph.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-Benghazi.html

[Dark Sage]

And why exactly does the British press matter in American politics?

You do know that in Europe, there are Socialist parties with actual political clout, unlike here.

[Roy Karrde]

And why exactly does the British press matter in American politics?

You do know that in Europe, there are Socialist parties with actual political clout, unlike here.

Not everything is about politics, there is a failure here, a monumentous failure to not heed the warnings, of having poor security in place, and not being informed of what was going to take place. The blame goes to Obama, the State Department, the Military, etc etc. But at the end of the day, people in our Government failed, and Americans paid for it with their lives.

[Dark Sage]

Hold it right there.

You mentioned that the military is partially to blame. Interesting.

You are aware, of course, that Allen West, a former member of the military, is saying much of the same things that you are, that Obama should take all the heat for this?

Seems that the GOP is blaming everyone but the groups they represent.

[Roy Karrde]

Hold it right there.

You mentioned that the military is partially to blame. Interesting.

You are aware, of course, that Allen West, a former member of the military, is saying much of the same things that you are, that Obama should take all the heat for this?

Seems that the GOP is blaming everyone but the groups they represent.

Obama should be taking heat for this, I mean what kind of idiot skips his daily intel briefings on the days leading up to 9/11

As for my blame on the military, it is either the military or the state department that decided to use Libyan Police and not U.S. soldiers to guard the embassy, who ever decided this should lose their job.

[Dark Sage]

Lets put the current crisis aside for a minute. Romney is even taking flak from his own party, the people who should be supporting him.

Conservative talk show host Laura Ingraham said of Romney that this was a “gimme election”, and that "If you can't beat Barack Obama with this record, then shut down the party. Shut it down. Start new, with new people."

Ingraham also had unkind words for Romney’s strategist Eric Fehrnstrom. "I'm sure he's a nice guy, but I don't happen to think he represents the best vision for Romney on camera," Ingraham said of Fehrnstrom. "Election after election, we hire people who have lost previous campaigns, who've run campaigns that have failed, who have message campaigns where the message fell flat, and they keep getting rehired ... I don't understand that. I don't know why those are the people you hire."

Bill Kristol of the Weekly Standard said, "It's not enough to float like a butterfly. You have to sting like a bee. No sting, no victory."

John Podhoretz of the New York Post wrote, "The Romney campaign seems to have settled on an argument that Obama's poll strength is just a post-convention 'sugar high,' as its pollster Neil Newhouse said in a strikingly infelicitous memo. It's interesting Newhouse hit on the dismissive description of a 'sugar high' -- because a sugar rush is what Romney's side needs."

Columnist George Will is emphasizing a much-repeated sentiment, that Romney is not conservative enough. "Mitt Romney does not have the feeling, the visceral, philosophically sound feeling for what's wrong with the progressive movement in this country," Will said. “He's a good man, a good fellow. He'd be a much better president than the one we've got. But he doesn't -- what I've said before about him is conservatism is a second language for him. And he is still learning it. And it's hard to learn this thing in the midst of a high-stakes presidential campaign."

Weekly Standard columnist Stephen Hayes, talking on Fox News, seemed to agree with Kristol. "I feel like now we've sort of reverted to this pre-Ryan moment -- this safe, cautious campaign."

Finally, political analyst Charlie Cook wrote in National Journal, "This is a very close race and one that still could go either way. But the odds of Romney capitalizing on this economy, and the opportunity it affords, seem lower than they were before the conventions. If Republicans and Romney supporters are growing nervous, they should be."

Those are what the experts are saying. Republican experts. I quoted them on it.

[Roy Karrde]

Lets put the current crisis aside for a minute. Romney is even taking flak from his own party, the people who should be supporting him.

Those are what the experts are saying. Republican experts. I quoted them on it.

So you bitch about Romney actually attacking Obama, and then you post a bunch of quotes from Republicans about Romney not attacking Obama enough and playing it safe. Which one is it?

[Dark Sage]

Actually, Roy, I do admit that Romney's attacks have been kind of pathetic and unbelievable.

I'm still waiting for the "Death Star" of advertisement campaigns, as you put it, to run Obama's campaign into the ground.

[Roy Karrde]

Actually, Roy, I do admit that Romney's attacks have been kind of pathetic and unbelievable.

I'm still waiting for the "Death Star" of advertisement campaigns, as you put it, to run Obama's campaign into the ground.

Oh which I noted had begun to buy up airtime last week, the post I believe is a few pages back. He already bought 4.5 million in the first day he can use his money.

http://firstread.nbcnews.com/_news/2...ck-on-air?lite

And 8.1 million yesterday.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com...illion-in-ads/

[Blademaster]

A election killer.

*An election killer.

[Dark Sage]

And this 12.6 million doesn't seem to have helped him much.

That poll you quoted doesn't show him with a commanding lead. In fact, it still shows the President with a slim lead.

[Roy Karrde]

And this 12.6 million doesn't seem to have helped him much.

That poll you quoted doesn't show him with a commanding lead. In fact, it still shows the President with a slim lead.

A: The ads are targeted toward swing states, the poll was nation wide.

B: Obama is back to his pre convention bounce.

C: Polling over the weekend is unreliable so yesterday and today is the first true day of polling of effects the weekend had.

Edit: Apparently the day after a U.S. Ambassador was killed, Obama has decided to skip his daily briefing... again.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinio...4e1_story.html

Edit Again: WHAT THE FUCK

U.S. Marines defending the American embassy in Egypt were not permitted by the State Department to carry live ammunition, limiting their ability to respond to attacks like those this week on the U.S. consulate in Cairo.

Ambassador to Egypt Anne Patterson “did not permit US Marine guards to carry live ammunition,” according to multiple reports on U.S. Marine Corps blog spotted by Nightwatch. “She neutralized any US military capability that was dedicated to preserve her life and protect the US Embassy.”

http://freebeacon.com/reports-marine...ted-live-ammo/

Obama's State Department has ALOT to answer for now.

[Dark Sage]

By the way, the director of that Indy movie that has the Muslim population mad has been identified.

Apparently, he has a criminal record for bank fraud and having a meth lab. In addition, the actors in his movie say that they were the victims of fraud, and the movie originally had no references to Islam; their lines were dubbed in the final cut. They were led to believe that the movie's title was "Desert Warriors".

This is freedom of speech? I don't think so. This is the work of a con artist who sought to spread unrest on purpose.

[Roy Karrde]

By the way, the director of that Indy movie that has the Muslim population mad has been identified.

Apparently, he has a criminal record for bank fraud and having a meth lab. In addition, the actors in his movie say that they were the victims of fraud, and the movie originally had no references to Islam; their lines were dubbed in the final cut. They were led to believe that the movie's title was "Desert Warriors".

This is freedom of speech? I don't think so. This is the work of a con artist who sought to spread unrest on purpose.

You realize that dubbing in lines to fit the director's vision, while a jackass move, is still freedom of speech and expression.

[Dark Sage]

It was a hate propaganda movie, Roy, and he conned the actors.

I think there are laws against that.

[Roy Karrde]

It was a hate propaganda movie, Roy, and he conned the actors.

I think there are laws against that.

Against conning the artists? Sure the artists can probably sue for damages.

Against his freedom of speech and it being "hate propaganda"? No. In reality there is MUCH worse that has been done against Christianity and been defended as Freedom of Speech than what this guy has done.

[Dark Sage]

Let me put it this way, Roy...

Four people are dead because of this.

No, make that eight. There's news that four protesters have been killed in Yemen today.

Now try to justify what he did.

Blame Obama as much as you want for not making the places more secure. He was not what drove the mobs to anger in the first place.

[Roy Karrde]

Let me put it this way, Roy...

Four people are dead because of this.

No, make that eight. There's news that four protesters have been killed in Yemen today.

Now try to justify what he did.

Blame Obama as much as you want for not making the places more secure. He was not what drove the mobs to anger in the first place.

So.. now you are blaming a man thousands of miles away for the deaths of those people, not the mob who killed them, not the preachers who incited them, but a man and his film. His "Art" his "Speech" and it was Speech and Art, did not kill those people, that mob did. Period, Paragraph, End of story.

[Dark Sage]

So.. now you are blaming a man thousands of miles away for the deaths of those people, not the mob who killed them, not the preachers who incited them, but a man and his film. His "Art" his "Speech" and it was Speech and Art, did not kill those people, that mob did. Period, Paragraph, End of story.

Of course I blame them too. And Obama has sworn to bring whoever incited it to justiice, and I hope he does. He made no apologies, like Romney falsely claimed.

But whoever did incite it needed ammunition to rile the crowd, and this was the perfect thing.

[Roy Karrde]

Of course I blame them too. And Obama has sworn to bring whoever incited it to justiice, and I hope he does. He made no apologies, like Romney falsely claimed.

He made no apologies? He said and I repeat “We reject all efforts to denigrate the religious beliefs of others"

That is a apology for the film.

But whoever did incite it needed ammunition to rile the crowd, and this was the perfect thing.

And you know what? Who cares! If it was not this it would be something else. It is not this guy's fault that far too many in the Middle East have the emotional maturity of a twelve year old.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah, well, given Romney's most recent speech, he seems to have been very much subdued by all the backlash he got from what he said.

Yesterday, he was trying to make himself look like a bobcat attacking Obama.

Today... He was a declawed housecat who couldn't even seem to handle a heckler.

[Roy Karrde]

Yeah, well, given Romney's most recent speech, he seems to have been very much subdued by all the backlash he got from what he said.

Yesterday, he was trying to make himself look like a bobcat attacking Obama.

Today... He was a declawed housecat who couldn't even seem to handle a heckler.

You know what? What ever gets the media to focus back on the State Departments failures to defend this home. If Romney takes a more relaxed stance to change the media's focus back on to those who should be fired and held responsible, then more power to him.

Edit: According to senior diplomatic sources, the US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted, but no warnings were given for diplomats to go on high alert and "lockdown", under which movement is severely restricted.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...n-8135797.html

If true and the media had even a ounce of sensibility, the Obama Administration would be pounded over this until there was no chance of a second term.

[Dark Sage]

When this story is reported in the New York Times or even The Daily News, rather than a British newspaper that I have never even heard of, then I will deem it true and agree with you.

But not one minute before.

I mean, seriously, not even any members of the Romney camp or ANY Republicans on Capitol Hill have publically mentioned this.

[Roy Karrde]

When this story is reported in the New York Times or even The Daily News, rather than a British newspaper that I have never even heard of, then I will deem it true and agree with you.

But not one minute before.

I have used the Independent before, it's usually a left leaning source, but I will defer to the British members on the credibility of the paper ( However that does not make the story more or less credible )

I mean, seriously, not even any members of the Romney camp or ANY Republicans on Capitol Hill have publically mentioned this.

Usually they get their information as we do, as such it's entirely possible for a news paper to get news before they do.

[Dark Sage]

This is amazing.

Romney's likability is dropping like a brick. Obama is leading in the polls in every swing state except Virgina (where it's a dead heat) and all of Romney's supporters - the ones he has left - including you Roy, are doing everything you can to attack the President, hoping that something will break to give Romney a huge boost.

Did I mention that the Democrat enthusiasm poll you kept referring to before has changed, showing an improvement?

The miracle is not gonna happen. It may soon be a question of Republican enthusiasm, because everyone is seeing just who their candidate really is, how he tried to use this crisis for personal and political gain, claiming that an unauthorized statement was the President's actual response. Romney is going to keep sinking, and the GOP are going to desert this ship like rats.

[Roy Karrde]

This is amazing.

Romney's likability is dropping like a brick. Obama is leading in the polls in every swing state except Virgina (where it's a dead heat) and all of Romney's supporters - the ones he has left - including you Roy, are doing everything you can to attack the President, hoping that something will break to give Romney a huge boost.

Did I mention that the Democrat enthusiasm poll you kept referring to before has changed, showing an improvement?

The miracle is not gonna happen. It may soon be a question of Republican enthusiasm, because everyone is seeing just who their candidate really is, how he tried to use this crisis for personal and political gain, claiming that an unauthorized statement was the President's actual response. Romney is going to keep sinking, and the GOP are going to desert this ship like rats.

So is that why Romney is now up in that Rasmussen poll you have cited? But man seriously what you said was all a diversion from the main topic, and is if it is true that Obama knew about the attacks and did nothing.

[Dark Sage]

Check the state-by-state polls.

And I do not think your claim is as damning as you percieve it to be.

[Roy Karrde]

Check the state-by-state polls.

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/naked...#storylink=cpy

You mean like that one?

And I do not think your claim is as damning as you percieve it to be.

You are kidding right? That the Administration knew days ahead that something could happen, and they did NOTHING, and now a American Ambassador is dead, and that isn't damning?

[mattbcl]

Gentlemen, I hope you don't mind me interceding with a subject that is a small tangent from what you're discussing, but I want to mention something I saw this evening that really and truly bothered me. It was this picture.



People are free to disagree with me on this one, but to be perfectly frank, I find the sentiment in that caption outrageous and vile. That was enough to stir my ire, but what truly upsets me about it is it was shared by someone I know from church, a man whose most deeply rooted values lie in the Christian faith. My own belief system is damaged and conflicted, and I question what I believe on a daily basis, but somehow, withdrawing aid of any sort from those countries (or any other to which we supply money and resources) does not strike me as a very Christian thing to do. It certainly would have no positive political ramifications at all - it's a perfectly dreadul method of dishing out vengeance on a vast majority of people who did absolutely nothing wrong, and would do nothing but (further) promote the idea that Americans are vindictive bastards.

I hope neither campaign touches this idea with a thirty-nine-and-a-half-foot pole.

[Roy Karrde]

I hope neither campaign touches this idea with a thirty-nine-and-a-half-foot pole.

Well then may I ask, what do you believe should be the proper retribution?

[mattbcl]

Current suspicions are that a small Jihadist group either ginned up the demonstration as a cover, or just seized the opportunity. Seek out those responsible and bring them to justice, certainly, and those who scaled the walls and fired the guns should answer for it. But the Libyans are, by and large, horrified at what's happened, and there have been three PRO-American demonstrations since the killings. Suffice to say not all of them think as the rioters did, and withdrawing aid is an unfair punishment upon every single one of them indiscriminately.

I'm not the biggest fan of armchair quarterbacking in politics to begin with, and I know I shouldn't take the graphic as seriously as I do - I know it's not going to pick up steam - but it really bothers me that people think any sort of progress can be made this way.

[Roy Karrde]

But the Libyans are, by and large, horrified at what's happened, and there have been three PRO-American demonstrations since the killings. Suffice to say not all of them think as the rioters did, and withdrawing aid is an unfair punishment upon every single one of them indiscriminately.

Except the aid tends to be determined on what we think of the Government, not the people, if the Libyan Government in some way played a part of it, or like Egypt encouraged it, then why should we aid a Government that is working against us?

[mattbcl]

Your question is hypothetical and your premise is based on an "if". I'm not interested in getting drawn into that conversation. I simply don't see any benefit to cancelling aid because a few rabble-rousers got their fifteen minutes. It's too easy to forget the majority that simply wants to live out their lives in peace, because we spend all our time focusing on what's drowning them out.

[mattbcl]

Anyway, sorry for the interruption, you guys can go back to yelling at each other now.

[Dark Sage]

"The number of potentially inflammatory things that are said or broadcast every week (is so large) ... that warning about all of them would be useless," said Paul Pillar, former top U.S. intelligence analyst for the Middle East and South Asia. It was "impossible to predict" the kind of violent reaction that occurred in Libya, Egypt and elsewhere.

One U.S. official said, "You can't freak out on everything that's broadcast."

That official and others said the airwaves and Internet were filled with hateful material and U.S. authorities could be "crying wolf" if they issued a warning every time an anti-Islamic broadside was aired or posted online.

That's why I say it isn't as damning as you say.

[Roy Karrde]

That's why I say it isn't as damning as you say.

The Independent states they were warned specifically of embassy attacks, not "Why didn't you raise the red flags when the broadcasts began" so I do not see what that article has to do with the Independent article.

Furthermore the Independent article is backed up now by Israeli papers saying that Egypt warned them as early as September 4th of problems ahead for their embassies.

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=284684

[Dark Sage]

http://miamiherald.typepad.com/naked...#storylink=cpy

You mean like that one?

Try this one:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...rida_president

And this one:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ohio_president

Note that these are the Rasmussen Reports, which are known to favor the GOP. The Gallup Polls show Mr. Obama ahead by even more.


Another thing. Romney just defined "middle-income Americans" as those making between $200K and $250K a year.

Gee, Mr. Romney, I only make $25K a year after taxes. Even my mom, a school principal, doesn't make nearly as much as your definition of middle-income. I never realized that my family was so dirt poor.

[Roy Karrde]

Try this one:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...rida_president

And this one:

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/publ...ohio_president

Note that these are the Rasmussen Reports, which are known to favor the GOP. The Gallup Polls show Mr. Obama ahead by even more.

Rasmussen also polls on a 3 day average as opposed to Gallup's 7 ( Obama lost two points today in Gallup BTW ), note all these were taken yesterday in which Romney was only up by 1, and now in today's Rasmussen, Romney is up by 3, so if the trend holds true in states, Romney is now up in both of those states by 1 or 2 points.

Another thing. Romney just defined "middle-income Americans" as those making between $200K and $250K a year.

Gee, Mr. Romney, I only make $25K a year after taxes, Inever realized that I was so dirt poor.

Proof?

By the way, we have fires going on in our embassies, restaurants being smashed, bomb threats being called in to universities, can't we focus on something more than what Romney says or did not say?

Edit: But how does he define ‘‘middle-income"? The Republican presidential nominee defined it Friday as income of $200,000 to $250,000 a year and less.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/...DRP/story.html