2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, if you admit that Romney should have said something to that woman, I'll admit that Obama should have interrupted his speech to address the crowd.

Here is the thing, I believe both should have kept their mouth shut, by engaging the crowd on such a issue you elevate it. You are the one that has been applying different standards.

Until then, I think that McCain showed poor maturity and let a big jerk get to him, compared to Obama, who is very good at keeping his cool around big jerks.

For what? Calling the person a jerk? It was security that pushed him out and so far I have seen nothing that says McCain ordered them to take him out. Mind you the Secret Service does the same thing to idiots at Obama's event. Remember when they pounced on the person who called Obama the AntiChrist?

[Dark Sage]

That's their job, Roy.

And it was clear that the guy was not completely in his right mind.

[Roy Karrde]

That's their job, Roy.

And it was clear that the guy was not completely in his right mind.

So... it's their job to do it at a Obama rally, but at a McCain event, it is a sign that you made the right decision to vote for Obama in 2008?

[Dark Sage]

Okay Roy... Question:

After the Secret Service apprehended the guy who called him the Anti-Christ, did Mr. Obama call him names?

No, he didn't. He just went on as if it didn't happen.

At McCain's speech, after security apprehended this guy, who admittedly shouldn't have done what he did, McCain called him a jerk.

In other words, McCain sank to his level. In a way, that heckler got what he wanted from McCain, a reaction.

And it wasn't a good reaction! If Romney had addressed that woman and told her that what she had said was false, THAT would have been a good reaction, and I might have actually respected him a little for it. But calling someone a jerk is simply trying to use two wrongs to make a right.

[Roy Karrde]

Okay Roy... Question:

After the Secret Service apprehended the guy who called him the Anti-Christ, did Mr. Obama call him names?

No, he didn't. He just went on as if it didn't happen.

At McCain's speech, after security apprehended this guy, who admittedly shouldn't have done what he did, McCain called him a jerk.

In other words, McCain sank to his level. In a way, that heckler got what he wanted from McCain, a reaction.

And it wasn't a good reaction! If Romney had addressed that woman and told her that what she had said was false, THAT would have been a good reaction, and I might have actually respected him a little for it. But calling someone a jerk is simply trying to use two wrongs to make a right.

So let me get this straight, calling the man a Jerk, for bringing up a topic on a day meant to honored the dead, by accusing McCain and his father of covering up a tragic event in which sailors died. And that suddenly means he sunk to that level? No, sinking to his level would have been calling him a "Mother Fucker" and threatening to kick his ass after the event. Calling him a jerk was not only deserved, but about as mild as some one could get after what the guy said.

But dude that has to honestly be the most pathetic spin I have seen you give, and that honestly means something. Bravo.

[Dark Sage]

Oh, I give up, this is like arguing with...

Come to think of it, this is like arguing with a Republican, which I just realized is exactly what I'm doing.

[Roy Karrde]

Oh, I give up, this is like arguing with...

Come to think of it, this is like arguing with a Republican, which I just realized is exactly what I'm doing.

So that must be why you lose the arguments so often

[Dark Sage]

No, it's simply because no matter what I say, you're always prepared to counter it with some phoney-baloney opinion. You won't give up.

Here's some facts for you to consider when comparing Obama with Romney.

Mitt Romney loves to attack Barack Obama’s record of job creation as president. Unfortunately, Mitt’s record as Massachusetts governor pales in comparison.

Obama has created a net 3.635 million jobs. Applying the same rules to Romney’s numbers through the same time period—that is, through April of his fourth year in office, 2006—we credit Romney with 64,500 jobs.

So he grew jobs by 1.9 percent. (During a BOOM, I might add)

Obama’s job-growth rate is 2.35 percent (during a BUST, by the way)

Add to this the fact that Obama, being President, had a far bigger jurisdiction.

Who is the bigger job creator?

No opinion here. Just facts.

[Roy Karrde]

Mitt Romney loves to attack Barack Obama’s record of job creation as president. Unfortunately, Mitt’s record as Massachusetts governor pales in comparison.

Obama has created a net 3.635 million jobs. Applying the same rules to Romney’s numbers through the same time period—that is, through April of his fourth year in office, 2006—we credit Romney with 64,500 jobs.

So he grew jobs by 1.9 percent. (During a BOOM, I might add)

Obama’s job-growth rate is 2.35 percent (during a BUST, by the way)

Add to this the fact that Obama, being President, had a far bigger jurisdiction.

Who is the bigger job creator?

No opinion here. Just facts.

Sure and just to add to the facts, how many of those numbers were temporary jobs created under a one trillion dollar Stimulus plan? How many of those jobs have now been lost now that the Stimulus money is now gone?

[Dark Sage]

Not sure. How many?

I take it you know?

[Roy Karrde]

Not sure. How many?

I take it you know?

No but I would assume that nearly a trillion dollars in Stimulus funds have to create a significant number of jobs even temporarily.

[Dark Sage]

So you say my numbers are flawed, but you don't know by how much, nor do you have anything to back your claim up with? You only "assume"?

[Roy Karrde]

So you say my numbers are flawed, but you don't know by how much, nor do you have anything to back your claim up with? You only "assume"?

Well let me put it this way, if a significant amount of those numbers are not from the Stimulus, then Obama is responsible for signing into law a trillion dollar Stimulus that does not even make up a significant amount of 3.6 million jobs.

[Dark Sage]

Roy, every time I make a claim with no proof, you refute it.

You made a claim with no proof. Now either provide some, or I'm calling BS on it.

Edit: And by the way, your claim was that most of the jobs he created have now been lost.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, every time I make a claim with no proof, you refute it.

You made a claim with no proof. Now either provide some, or I'm calling BS on it.

Well the CBO claims that 3.7 million jobs were created under the Stimulus.

http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mone...ted-job-growth

Which suggests that a significant amount of Obama's numbers came from that alone.

Edit: And by the way, your claim was that most of the jobs he created have now been lost.

No where did I say "Most", I said and I quote "How many of those jobs have now been lost now that the Stimulus money is now gone?".

Now if we are to suggest that most of Obama's jobs came from the Stimulus, then logically many of those were temporary jobs, as it was even acknowledged at the time they were only temporary jobs.

[Dark Sage]

Nothing there about any of the jobs that Obama created that were ultimately lost.

Am I missing something?

[Roy Karrde]

Nothing there about any of the jobs that Obama created that were ultimately lost.

Am I missing something?

You do know the fundamentals of the Stimulus right? The jobs are created for as long as they are needed ( Science projects ), or a combination of how ever long the money is invested ( Highway projects ). Once the Stimulus money ran out, the jobs ended. You do not honestly expect for the jobs to continue with no money to fund them correct?

[Dark Sage]

Then again, I ask you Roy, how many of those jobs were temporary jobs that have now been lost?

Is it enough to truly make Romney's record as a job creator better than Obama's?

By the way, Roy, the numbers I gave were net gains. If the stimulus did indeed create 3.7 million jobs, then Obama's total gain is zero. And we all know he did better.

[Roy Karrde]

Then again, I ask you Roy, how many of those jobs were temporary jobs that have now been lost?

Is it enough to truly make Romney's record as a job creator better than Obama's?

Well according to the White House, all of the Jobs created under the Stimulus were temporary.

"“The Recovery Act was designed to be temporary. The amount of stimulus outlays and tax reductions has begun to decline and, as discussed in previous reports, as it does so the impact on the level of GDP and employment will lessen over time.”"

http://www.independentsentinel.com/2...temporary-job/

So if we are to take the White House on it's own numbers, 2.6 million to 3.6 million jobs need to be shaved off of Obama's job created number as they are only sustained by temporary Government cash.

[Dark Sage]

Then Obama's gains were... zero?

Look at my original figures again.

We all know he did better than that, Roy. The unemployment numbers have improved at least slightly in his first term.

[Roy Karrde]

Then Obama's gains were... zero?

Look at my original figures again.

We all know he did better than that, Roy. The unemployment numbers have improved at least slightly in his first term.

That is to assume the top number of the Stimulus which obviously I do not believe. However I do believe a significant amount of Obama's numbers do come from the Stimulus. By the way the reason much of the unemployment numbers are down, is because those looking for work are bailing out. It would be like saying cutting out all the job seekers so that unemployment goes down to zero.

[Dark Sage]

I hear that all the time Roy. The GOP just loves to say that every time unemployment goes down.

I'm sure it's true... To a degree. Maybe not as much as they claim, however. But you can be sure that the folks who are "bailing out" are not going to support the GOP. Those are the people who the OWS crowd came from.

[Roy Karrde]

I hear that all the time Roy. The GOP just loves to say that every time unemployment goes down.

I'm sure it's true... To a degree. Maybe not as much as they claim, however. But you can be sure that the folks who are "bailing out" are not going to support the GOP. Those are the people who the OWS crowd came from.

They do not need to support the GOP, all they need to do is not vote for Obama.

[Dark Sage]

Well, it's official... Romney is the GOP nominee.

Unfortunately, due to his willingness to work with one of the most notorious birthers in the country, my opinion of him has dropped like a stone.

If Romney won't stand up to a charlatan like Trump in order to line his pockets with donations, what does that say about the type of President he would be? Huh?

Here me now. Until Romney decides to tell Trump off like the idiot he is, I will not respect him as a politician.

And by the way... If anyone tries to convince me that Romney isn't making a poor choice by accepting Trump into his fold, my opinion of that person is going to plummet too.

[Roy Karrde]

Well, it's official... Romney is the GOP nominee.

Unfortunately, due to his willingness to work with one of the most notorious birthers in the country, my opinion of him has dropped like a stone.

If Romney won't stand up to a charlatan like Trump in order to line his pockets with donations, what does that say about the type of President he would be? Huh?

Here me now. Until Romney decides to tell Trump off like the idiot he is, I will not respect him as a politician.

And by the way... If anyone tries to convince me that Romney isn't making a poor choice by accepting Trump into his fold, my opinion of that person is going to plummet too.

Dude you are one of the biggest partisan hacks on here, no one expects you to have a high opinion of Romney. By the way this is the email the Romney camp has sent out, and I do agree with them, you spend time reputing everyone, it distracts from the issues.

" Romney aides believe that cooperating with Democrats and media figures who are demanding a Trump disavowal would most certainly lead to more calls for more disavowals of other figures in the future — leaving Romney spending as much time apologizing for his supporters as campaigning for president. Team Romney views it as a silly and one-sided game designed to distract voters from the central issue of the race, which they remain convinced will be President Obama’s handling of the economy.

By one-sided, they mean not only that Obama has not disavowed SuperPAC contributor Bill Maher for a number of Maher’s statements that were particularly insulting to Republican women. They also mean the press, with, as Team Romney see it, questionable associations of its own. Has David Gregory, moderator of NBC’s “Meet the Press,” repudiated his colleague Al Sharpton, the MSNBC host with a decades-long record of incendiary statements and actions? And has, say, the New York Times columnist Gail Collins repudiated her colleague Charles Blow, who once wrote to Romney, “Stick that in your magic underwear”? Romney, his team believes, understands that the calls for him to repudiate Trump over the issue of birtherism — and future calls to repudiate this or that supporter next week or next month over some other issue — are at the core all about politics.

Another reason Romney is wary of such concessions is that John McCain tried them, and they didn’t do him any good."

[Dark Sage]

Bullshit. By law, the candidate can have no connection to a SuperPAC that is suppporting him, and no control over it. It is an entitiy that exists independent of him.

If I wanted to compare Romney's relation to Trump to Obama's relation to anyone I would have said so. I do not, and I don't care. Trump is a birther racist, and so long as Romney pals around with with him, I won't respect him.

And like I said Roy, my respect for you has now diminished.

Edit: I'm "one of the biggest partisan hacks on here"? Maybe, but so are you.

[Roy Karrde]

Bullshit. By law, the candidate can have no connection to a SuperPAC that is suppporting him, and no control over it. It is an entitiy that exists independent of him.

And is that why he not only endorsed the PAC but is allowing White House staffers to campaign for it?

If I wanted to compare Romney's relation to Trump to Obama's relation to anyone I would have said so. I do not, and I don't care. Trump is a birther racist, and so long as Romney pals around with with him, I won't respect him.

Seeing your low opinion of Romney already, I doubt that changes much. But its funny that you are mad at Romney for being pals with a birther, but have no problem with Obama being pals with a terrorist.

And like I said Roy, my respect for you has now diminished.

And I care about this why?

Edit: I'm "one of the biggest partisan hacks on here"? Maybe, but so are you.

I may be a distant second, but that is the keyword isn't it.. distant.

By the way here are some facts for you.

Romney's Unemployment Rate: 4.5%
Number of net new jobs created under Obama ( In the negatives still )
Romney's gain in women over the last month: +13%
Obama's gain in women over the last month: -7%

[Dark Sage]

Romney is putting money before political morals. That's the bottom line.

Obama may have gotten endorsements from some controversial people - like Bill Maher and Al Sharpton - but he never held campaign fundraisers with them!

I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but I think birthers are scum. The accusations that they make towards Obama are the biggest insult towards a man who holds the office of President that have ever been made. And they all stem towards the fact that he is African-American.

And you are a hypocrite, Roy. You once called the birther movement nonsense, and claimed you refuted the claim on other websites. Now, Romney has allied himself with one of the worst, and you don't have backbone enough to call him out on it.

Oh, and by the way, smarty pants... Those figures of how Romney has gained support from women and how Obama has lost it... Despite that, Obama still has a vast lead over Romney in that demographic.

Edit: Obama is not pals with a terrorist. He simply knew the guy.

[Roy Karrde]

Romney is putting money before political morals. That's the bottom line.

And Obama hasn't?

Obama may have gotten endorsements from some controversial people - like Bill Maher and Al Sharpton - but he never held campaign fundraisers with them!

No he has from Jimmy Hoffa Jr though.

I'm sorry if I seem harsh, but I think birthers are scum. The accusations that they make towards Obama are the biggest insult towards a man who holds the office of President that have ever been made. And they all stem towards the fact that he is African-American.

Really? It all has to do with racism? It may not have anything to do with say a tough primary with Hillary? Or the fact that Obama has such a mysterious past? Or the fact that he himself has portrayed himself as being born in Kenya in the past?

And you are a hypocrite, Roy. You once called the birther movement nonsense, and claimed you refuted the claim on other websites. Now, Romney has allied himself with one of the worst, and you don't have backbone enough to call him out on it.

Dude I have not said anything for or against Romney's views on it, I said I can see where they come from in not wanting to play the disownment game.

Oh, and by the way, smarty pants... Those figures of how Romney has gained support from women and how Obama has lost it... Despite that, Obama still has a vast lead over Romney in that demographic.

Widdle Away, all he has to do is widdle away.

Edit: Obama is not pals with a terrorist. He simply knew the guy.

Just like Romney simply knows Trump. Those are the same standards we must apply here seeing how Ayres played a major role in getting Obama off the ground and into the political field.

[Dark Sage]

Really? It all has to do with racism? It may not have anything to do with say a tough primary with Hillary? Or the fact that Obama has such a mysterious past? Or the fact that he himself has portrayed himself as being born in Kenya in the past?

Okay, I'm gonna name three names. Listen closely...

Barrak Obama
Mitt Romney
Donald Trump

What do these three men have in common, other than the fact that they were all Ivy Leagers?

Answer: All three had one parent who was not born in the United States.

So answer this. Of the three of them, why is Obama the only one who's citizenship and eligibilty for the office he holds questioned? No one has has ever questioned Romney about it, or Trump when he considered a White House run.

I'm listening...

[Roy Karrde]

Okay, I'm gonna name three names. Listen closely...

Barrak Obama
Mitt Romney
Donald Trump

What do these three men have in common, other than the fact that they were all Ivy Leagers?

Answer: All three had one parent who was not born in the United States.

So answer this. Of the three of them, why is Obama the only one who's citizenship and eligibilty for the office he holds questioned? No one has has ever questioned Romney about it, or Trump when he considered a White House run.

I'm listening...

A: Obama spent a prolonged child hood outside of the country.

B: None of them had as a intense primary as Obama did with Hillary Clinton that produced such hard and noxious feelings for the candidate that anything to disqualify him was on the table.

[Dark Sage]

I went to school in Great Britain for two years. Does that make me a subject of the British Crown??

[Roy Karrde]

I went to school in Great Britain for two years. Does that make me a subject of the British Crown??

And where do you get that line of thought? I am just telling you where the questions began to come from. Mind you I do not believe any of this stuff, but tight elections breed conspiracies. How many Democrats believed Bush stole the 2000 election?

[Dark Sage]

You'll be glad to know that I personally didn't.

Can we at least agree that Trump is a big jerk?

[Blademaster]

No, it's simply because no matter what I say, you're always prepared to counter it with some phoney-baloney opinion.

How can an opinion be phony...? I get how you can have a stupid opinion, but why would you have a FAKE one?

And like I said Roy, my respect for you has now diminished.

And I care about this why?

I never even considered this response as an option years back when it mattered... Thank you, Roy. Thank you for saying what I was too afraid to. You get a 'Get-Out-of-Being-Bitched-at-by-Blade-Free' card for future use. Spend it wisely.

[Roy Karrde]

You'll be glad to know that I personally didn't.

Can we at least agree that Trump is a big jerk?

I believe that he is a fucking doushebag who cares nothing about politics and everything about whoring himself out into what ever fucking camera he finds.

[Dark Sage]

Good lord, Roy, not that I'd disagree, but... I'd never really say it quite like that...

[Dark Sage]

This is not related to the election (at least not this one) but it seems that the case against John Edwards has ultimately gone nowhere.

After spending a great deal of taxpayer dollars, of course.

Seems a lot like the Starr Report, don't you think? A witchhunt aimed at prosecuting an important Democrat, fueled by taxpayer dollars, which ultimately yeilded nothing.

Btw, I'm not saying that Edwards isn't a jerk, because he is. But being a jerk isn't a crime.

[Roy Karrde]

This is not related to the election (at least not this one) but it seems that the case against John Edwards has ultimately gone nowhere.

After spending a great deal of taxpayer dollars, of course.

Seems a lot like the Starr Report, don't you think? A witchhunt aimed at prosecuting an important Democrat, fueled by taxpayer dollars, which ultimately yeilded nothing.

Btw, I'm not saying that Edwards isn't a jerk, because he is. But being a jerk isn't a crime.

No but using political funds for private things, like say for keeping your wife from knowing about your mistress is illegal, and really he should have been found guilty.

That being said and in far larger news the economy took a massive hit today, it hasn't hit Obama's numbers too hard yet, but as has been said if next month is as bad as this one, then Romney is catapulted into the favorite to win the election.

[Dark Sage]

That being said and in far larger news the economy took a massive hit today, it hasn't hit Obama's numbers too hard yet, but as has been said if next month is as bad as this one, then Romney is catapulted into the favorite to win the election.

I look at it as a clear-cut case of the "job creators" (as the GOP loves to call the wealthy) not living up to that title, and giving them more reason not to deserve it.