2012 U.S. Presidential Election

[Dark Sage]

Proof? It's all over the news!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...d-mitt-romney/

[Roy Karrde]

Proof? It's all over the news!

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics...d-mitt-romney/

Proof in that he defined the Middle Class as only between 200,000 and 250,000

As my edit shows, that is not the truth, he defined it as "income of $200,000 to $250,000 a year and less"

[Dark Sage]

Anyone who thinks that $200k a year is "middle-income" is crazy. It's upper-class.

[Roy Karrde]

Anyone who thinks that $200k a year is "middle-income" is crazy. It's upper-class.

Guess you never lived in New York before, or many other big cities, as the cost of living there, the taxes, and numerous other costs can quickly rack up. For example in New York making $60,000 and living in Manhattan is equivalent to someone making $26,092 elsewhere.

http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009...ive-urban-area

[Dark Sage]

Roy, the cost of living in Washington Depot, Connecticut, where my parents live, is even higher. A lot of rich people from Europe live there, and several celebrities like Woody Allen have homes there.

My parents have a very large house that is now fully paid for, two cars, and they recently took a Mediterranean Cruise for their summer vacation. Before they did that, they paid for a VIP trip to Disney World for my three-year-old niece, Sofia. I have the pictures of her with cosplay actors dressed as Cinderella and Snow White at the resort's best restaurants.

And yet... Their salary has never reached $200K for either of them.

If a salary like that is middle-income for someone living anywhere, then I'm the King of England.

[Roy Karrde]

Roy, the cost of living in Washington Depot, Connecticut, where my parents live, is even higher. A lot of rich people from Europe live there, and several celebrities like Woody Allen have homes there.

My parents have a very large house that is now fully paid for, two cars, and they recently took a Mediterranean Cruise for their summer vacation. Before they did that, they paid for a VIP trip to Disney World for my three-year-old niece, Sofia. I have the pictures of her with cosplay actors dressed as Cinderella and Snow White at the resort's best restaurants.

And yet... Their salary has never reached $200K for either of them.

If a salary like that is middle-income for someone living anywhere, then I'm the King of England.

You know I am not getting into a arguing match with you about cost of living, the facts speak for themselves, and that is that New York and other cities have a insane cost of living, in which $200,000 and $250,000 for a couple barely breaks upper middle class.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0..._Orange_County
http://articles.nydailynews.com/2009...ive-urban-area

But as I said before, there are more important things to focus on right now.

[Dark Sage]

True... The riots in the Middle East which were started by a rather awful Indy movie that has been condemned by the President, the Secretary of State, and most everyone else, which you claim was his right to release.

[Roy Karrde]

True... The riots in the Middle East which were started by a rather awful Indy movie that has been condemned by the President, the Secretary of State, and most everyone else, which you claim was his right to release.

Well I, and the Constitution/Bill of Rights....

But that hasn't stopped this administration from trying to pull it and deny this guy his freedom of speech.

http://www.politico.com/politico44/2...lm-135586.html

Kind of sad, if not scary, when the Government tries to pull video off the internet from a private citizen.

[Dark Sage]

Believe me, Roy... Not many people are taking his side...

[Roy Karrde]

Believe me, Roy... Not many people are taking his side...

You know what? You do not have to take his side to support his right to freedom of speech. Honestly I am taken by surprise by how many on the left have quickly come out in support of Anti Blasphamy laws these past few days, even though they would utterly rip apart Athiests ( A Key constituency of the left )

Edit: BBC has a new article on the US consulate, it's sad we have to go to the British press for info.

"US embassies and consulates in areas of the world where they are deemed liable to attack are usually offered a formal security contract called a Worldwide Protective Services Agreement, known in the industry as a 'Wips'.

The contract, or so-called tasking order, is between the US state department and any one of several major private military contractors such as DynCorp International and Aegis Defence Services.

Under this agreement, extensive security precautions are put in place, including low-profile armoured vehicles, run-flat tyres, sufficient weapons, ammunition and trained personnel, as well as a tried and tested command and control system.

But sources have told the BBC that on the advice of a US diplomatic regional security officer, the mission in Benghazi was not given the full contract despite lobbying by private contractors.

Instead, the US consulate was guarded externally by a force of local Libyan militia, many of whom reportedly put down their weapons and fled once the mission came under concerted attack. "

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19605322

[Dark Sage]

You're a fine one to speak on what constitues Free Speech, Roy. You and all other Republicans.

When G.H.W. Bush was President, a court ruled that the right of Free Speech protected your right to burn the American flag, and Bush Senior didn't like this. He tried to gain support for a Constituional Amendment that would make desecration of the flag a crime.

He got very little. Which is, to get off the subject, one of the reasons why I say that the GOP's platform goal of adding not one, but two Constitutonal Amendments is a fantasy. Most ideas for changing the Constitution don't even get as far as the ERA did, if they even get past the drawing board.

And btw, why are all your sources about this breach of security coming from British news agencies and not ours?

[Roy Karrde]

You're a fine one to speak on what constitues Free Speech, Roy. You and all other Republicans.

Umm dude I was like 7 when Bush was in office.

When G.H.W. Bush was President, a court ruled that the right of Free Speech protected your right to burn the American flag, and Bush Senior didn't like this. He tried to gain support for a Constituional Amendment that would make desecration of the flag a crime.

Which I am sure many people are conflicted upon but they ruled correctly.

And btw, why are all your sources about this breach of security coming from British news agencies and not ours?

Makes you wonder if the American press is trying to cover Obama's ass doesn't it?

[Dark Sage]

Makes you wonder if the American press is trying to cover Obama's ass doesn't it?

You might have a point if not for the fact that even Fox News won't support Romney on this.

Even Rush Limbaugh is avoiding the issue. Instead, he made his most wild "theory" yet yesterday, claiming that Al-Qaida "gave up" Osama bin Laden to make Mr. Obama look good because they were afraid of what would happen if Obama lost re-election.

Frankly, I think that the painkillers are starting to affect his brain.

[Roy Karrde]

You might have a point if not for the fact that even Fox News won't support Romney on this.

Last time I checked Fox News was ripping into the media and Obama for their handling of all of this.

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/kyle-dr...-attacking-rom

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/noel-sh...ma-because-med

http://www.mediaite.com/tv/megyn-kel...gypt-response/

[Gavin Luper]

Let me put it this way, Roy...

Four people are dead because of this.

No, make that eight. There's news that four protesters have been killed in Yemen today.

Now try to justify what he did.

Blame Obama as much as you want for not making the places more secure. He was not what drove the mobs to anger in the first place.

So.. now you are blaming a man thousands of miles away for the deaths of those people, not the mob who killed them, not the preachers who incited them, but a man and his film. His "Art" his "Speech" and it was Speech and Art, did not kill those people, that mob did. Period, Paragraph, End of story.

I reckon Hillary Clinton summed it up pretty well:

"To us, to me, personally, this video is disgusting and reprehensible. It appears to have a deeply cynical purpose, to denigrate a great religion and to provoke rage," Mrs Clinton said.

"But as I said yesterday, there is no justification, none at all, for responding to this video with violence."

The dude who made the video was presumably trying to be controversial and provoke a stir - this is giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he didn't have more sinister intentions. There was no way of really knowing how huge the scale of the outrage would be globally, though. Even though the filmmaker is probably a total idiot and his work reprehensible indeed (though I haven't watched the film), I don't think it's right to say he's responsible for these deaths - the people who carried out the violence are the ones who hold responsibility and accountability for how they expressed their outrage. Violence like this is never okay.

[Dark Sage]

"Idiot", Gavin? He was a bigot who made a hate propaganda movie.

That's the long and short of it.

[Roy Karrde]

"Idiot", Gavin? He was a bigot who made a hate propaganda movie.

That's the long and short of it.

And? At the end of the day he has every right to do it, just as you have every right to call him a bigot, or his views hateful.

And if that right causes a 1,000 protests in the Middle East, at the end of the day it is still worth it.

[Dark Sage]

Btw, Roy, when a respectable American news agency finds the time to focus on this incredibly serious - and likely impeachable - accusation you are trying to make against the President, then I'll consider that it has any merit in fact. But not before.

[Gavin Luper]

"Idiot", Gavin? He was a bigot who made a hate propaganda movie.

That's the long and short of it.

I can't really be sure whether it was poor-taste satire or hateful, but I don't see how it actually incited hate or violence against anyone. I have watched parts of it and whatever it is, it's dreadful, though frankly not as offensive to muslims as far more mainstream films have been - Team America was far more offensive in some ways, I reckon.

Being a bigot is abhorrent and disgusting, but not actually against the law, remember - at least, not in the United States. And in any case, someone expressing bigoted views is not a justification for violent retaliation against, and murder of, the fellow citizens and embassies of the home nation of said bigot.

[Dark Sage]

Gavin, Muslims consider any depiction of the Prophet Mohammed to be a blasphemy, letalone one that depicts him as a womanizer and a pedophile.

[Roy Karrde]

Btw, Roy, when a respectable American news agency finds the time to focus on this incredibly serious - and likely impeachable - accusation you are trying to make against the President, then I'll consider that it has any merit in fact. But not before.

So now we do not consider the BBC as being respectable? That it has to be American?

Gavin, Muslims consider any depiction of the Prophet Mohammed to be a blasphemy, letalone one that depicts him as a womanizer and a pedophile.

Not to go off topic, but Mohammad was kind of a womanizer and a pedophile, obviously not to the stupidity that the movie takes it. But the guy did have multiple wives and did screw a 9 year old girl.

[Dark Sage]

After the way the British media treated Amanda Knox, I have no respect for them.

None at all.

So the answer to your question, in my eyes, is no, I do not consider them respectable.

Not to go off topic, but Mohammad was kind of a womanizer and a pedophile, obviously not to the stupidity that the movie takes it. But the guy did have multiple wives and did screw a 9 year old girl.

King Solomon, according to legend, had 700 wives and 300 concubines, but both Jews and Christians alike speak very highly of him.

[Gavin Luper]

Gavin, Muslims consider any depiction of the Prophet Mohammed to be a blasphemy, letalone one that depicts him as a womanizer and a pedophile.

Yes, but this film was made in the United States, where freedom of speech is valued quite highly.

I'm not defending the film's content or it's director (I think it was poorly-timed, abhorrent, incendiary, etc.), but it is just words. To not say anything because someone might find it offensive, or blasphemy, would mean forcing people in a free society to abide by the standards applied by not just major religions, but basically any religion or cult.

[Dark Sage]

Btw, Roy, the Marist and Gallup Polls show a very different story than the polls you linked to. And I seem to recall your claim about Gallup being accurate.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...s#.UFM7DVvhL-c

[Roy Karrde]

Btw, Roy, the Marist and Gallup Polls show a very different story than the polls you linked to. And I seem to recall your claim about Gallup being accurate.

http://content.usatoday.com/communit...s#.UFM7DVvhL-c

You realize that Gallup is also a 7 day poll ( Not sure about Marist ), unlike Rasmussen and I believe the Florida one so it will take a few days for them to catch up.

Also I would suggest you check the internals of the Marist poll, the only way for it to come out to even being close to being true is if Democratic Voting levels are close to 2008, and we both know that is not going to happen.

[Blademaster]

After the way the British media treated Amanda Knox, I have no respect for them.

None at all.

So the answer to your question, in my eyes, is no, I do not consider them respectable.

It's that kind of utterly unflinching and absolute condemnation of a nationwide cultural aspect that leads to buildings being firebombed and ambassadors killed. Just saying. Please don't contribute more of it to the world - it doesn't need it.

[Roy Karrde]

Worth taking a look, Colonel David Hunt the Fox News ( American Media Outlit ) Military Analyst is saying that Hillary deserves the blame for the incident, as the "2011 Rules of Engagement for Libya" is what ultimately caused the poor security that led to the deaths here.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...es-at-Benghazi

[Heald]

After the way the British media treated Amanda Knox, I have no respect for them.

None at all.

So the answer to your question, in my eyes, is no, I do not consider them respectable.

1) Amanda Knox repeatedly and provably lied in her testimony and she evidently tampered with the crime scene to cover up her involvement in it. Regardless of innocence or guilt, she perverted the course of justice and so justifiably attracted ire from the nation of the girl who was murdered.

2) US media regularly dumps on the rest of the world, so don't try to claim the moral high ground - the USA has probably the worst non-state owned mass media on the planet in terms of rampant jingoism.

[Dark Sage]

Give me a break, Heald.

That crazy prosecutor accused her of belonging to a Satanic cult (which may not even exist) and of killing Meredith in a Halloween-inspired ritual killing. And he had made a similar accusation against another defendant in a previous case. Long story short, he believes in withcraft, in this day and age. And that's only the gravest example of why his case was flawed.

It was obvious the first time that she and her boyfriend were innocent. Ask any respectable American lawyer, legal expert, or law professor. I have yet to hear from one who even believes that she would have been brought to trial if it had happened here. But public perception of her in Europe due in part to the press swayed the jury.

Edit: Btw, I'm surprised you're defending the press in Europe, after a French magazine is publishing indecent pictures of Kate Middleton that a peeping tom paparazzi snapped.

[Heald]

That crazy prosecutor accused her of belonging to a Satanic cult (which may not even exist) and of killing Meredith in a Halloween-inspired ritual killing. And he had made a similar accusation against another defendant in a previous case. Long story short, he believes in withcraft, in this day and age. And that's only the gravest example of why his case was flawed.

And how does this relate to the British press?

It was obvious the first time that she and her boyfriend were innocent. Ask any respectable American lawyer, legal expert, or law professor. I have yet to hear from one who even believes that she would have been brought to trial if it had happened here. But public perception of her in Europe due in part to the press swayed the jury.

Again, nothing to do with the British press.

Edit: Btw, I'm surprised you're defending the press in Europe, after a French magazine is publishing indecent pictures of Kate Middleton that a peeping tom paparazzi snapped.

Nothing to do with the British press.

Next time you decide to try and talk about something in which you have not a single clue in the subject matter, don't.

[Dark Sage]

Next time you decide to try and talk about something in which you have not a single clue in the subject matter, don't.

Actually, Heald, I've studied the Kersher case intently for the past five years, and I even wrote an essay on it. I know better than most people how much the British press crucified that poor woman.

And you know something? Right now, the only reason why I'm not leaving this thread in disgust would be because Roy would accuse me of running away from an arguement because I was losing it, and I refuse to let him do that. The polls clearly say that Obama is in the lead, but he's making up every excuse he can think of to debunk them. Justl like... Just like a Republican.


Edit: Btw, I was curious, so I looked up the 13-minute film on YouTube and watched it. Putting the controversy aside, if I were to give my opinion on it strictly as a movie, I would say that it was... Absolute garbage.

Seriously, calling this director a third-rate amateur would be too kind.

[Roy Karrde]

I do think it is kind of ironic that you accuse me of making up every excuse to debunk something when you are doing the same for the entire British media.

That being said Heald is right, media does some times get the facts wrong, that includes the U.S. media ( Casey Anthony? ). You need to debate the actual information, and if you can prove it false as I do with some of your polls, then show how it is false, do not rely on one singular blemish in their past.

[Dark Sage]

Here's a view on Romney; not mine, the view of a GOP activist (I use the term loosely):

"He ought to be killing Obama, and he's clearly not doing that," said 32-year-old R.J. Robinson, one of the thousands of activists attending the annual Values Voters Summit this weekend. "He should be doing better."

Amazing. Truly amazing.

Don't most people find it kind of funny that these neo-Republicans (by this I mean the Tea Party) thought that they could choose from Santorum, Bachmann, Gingrich, Cain, Perry, and finally Romney to be president. Choosing finally Romney based upon his electability (in as much as he proved during the debates that he could name the three branches of government and his eyes didn't roll around in his head), to vie against a Constitutional lawyer, who actually now has experience at the job.

Seriously, I find it arrogant and amusing at the same time. If I were a single issue voter, I would not have selected those amazing clown characters to represent my interest.

The GOP think that Obama will fail in the debates because he has to "defend his record". That's all I hear when I bring the issue up. IMOHO, I think that the President has been preparing for that contigency for months, and is just waiting for Romney to confront him on it. Romney, on the other hand, has to defend the fact that he has promised virtually nothing during his whole campaign, running on nothing but the fact that he isn't Obama.

As for Romney... Well, on one hand, he preformed very well in the primary debates, for the most part. On the other hand, he wasn't facing any worthy opponents in those debates.

[Roy Karrde]

The GOP think that Obama will fail in the debates because he has to "defend his record". That's all I hear when I bring the issue up. IMOHO, I think that the President has been preparing for that contigency for months, and is just waiting for Romney to confront him on it.

He can prepare for it, but that does not mean he can properly defend it. And remember that Obama does a terrible job when he is away from his teleprompter crutch. He jumbles his words and thoughts, he filibusters, and he has a terrible time making a concise argument.

Romney, on the other hand, has to defend the fact that he has promised virtually nothing during his whole campaign.

Kind of like what Obama is doing now?

As for Romney... Well, on one hand, he preformed very well in the primary debates, for the most part. On the other hand, he wasn't facing any worthy opponents in those debates.

Newt Gingrich would like a word with you...

BTW CNN confirms that the U.S. was warned 3 days before the attack, you may now accept it as fact.

http://articles.cnn.com/2012-09-15/m...ecurity-detail

[Dark Sage]

Three days before the deadly assault on the United States consulate in Libya, a local security official says he met with American diplomats in the city and warned them about deteriorating security.

Does it say that the State Department or President was among the ones informed?

No.

Did it warn them that an attack was coming?

No. It warned them about the bad state of security.

By the way, I'm sick of the whole "teleprompter thing". EVERY politician uses them. Take a look at a story that sheds some light on this big joke that the GOP is so fond of mocking Obama with:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politi...ivL_story.html

[Roy Karrde]

Does it say that the State Department or President was among the ones informed?

No.

Did it warn them that an attack was coming?

No. It warned them about the bad state of security.

So... you are saying the diplomats did not forward it onto the state department as is their job? And last time I checked a deteriorating state is a warming of a intimate possible attack. But then again I do not have the wonderful experience the state department has.

[Dark Sage]

The State Department gets dozens of warnings a day, and most are baseless. They wouldn't have time to do their jobs if they had to sound a red alert for each one.

Can you please tell me why this one stood out any more than all the others?

Btw, I suppose if I were to bring up the widely known accusation that Bush had ample warning of the 9/11 attacks, you would call me crazy, right?

[Roy Karrde]

The State Department gets dozens of warnings a day, and most are baseless. They wouldn't have time to do their jobs if they had to sound a red alert for each one.

Can you please tell me why this one stood out any more than all the others?

Btw, I suppose if I were to bring up the widely known accusation that Bush had ample warning of the 9/11 attacks, you would call me crazy, right?

I would say that was a pre 9/11 mindset and this was not.

As for why this stood out? It came directly from their contacts and there is ample evidence that those at the consulate were afraid for their lives. So to compare this to say a simple call in from a prank caller would be wrong.

[Dark Sage]

My supervisor at work was in the Marines, and was stationed in the Middle East.

I told him about your theory the other night, and the State Department's reponse to it, and he agrees with the State Department. He told me that a day in which his CO got less than ten threats on his life or his unit was considered, by the CO, "a slow day".

[Roy Karrde]

My supervisor at work was in the Marines, and was stationed in the Middle East.

I told him about your theory the other night, and the State Department's reponse to it, and he agrees with the State Department. He told me that a day in which his CO got less than ten threats on his life or his unit was considered, by the CO, "a slow day".

And being in the marines is remarkably different than being a peace officer in a dangerous area with little to no protection other than a locked door.

Again I will say this was not a prank caller, this came from informants in a area that had already experienced IED attacks